China won Turkey's missile defense competition

Equation

Lieutenant General
See the bigger picture, the ruling AKP party is moving away from Europe (EU association and membership dialogue) and from NATO towards a stronger role in the Middle East, Central Asia and Asia in general. Instruments are the Turkic Council and the SCO membership dialogue.
The Iraq and Syria situation did give Turkey much to handle in the Middle East and they do not feel comfortable with that (it's obvious why).
Plus, alienating from EU and NATO allows to strengthen the longterm fiendship with Greece (a phony conflict).

Just curious Kurt, is Turkey doing this out of economic interests or religion? A lot of Western news that I've read have Turkey leaning more towards Islam (that may or may not be radical). My sister and her husband visited Turkey one time from a cruise ship and they love it. It's a very beautiful country and they were very surprised how open it is. It is a very metropolitan country. For that reason I can't see how Turkey would be more conservative if it's leaning towards a more Islamic way of life. Sorry if I come out seeming like anti-Islam or anything, I am NOT, I want to clarify that.
 

chuck731

Banned Idiot
Just curious Kurt, is Turkey doing this out of economic interests or religion? A lot of Western news that I've read have Turkey leaning more towards Islam (that may or may not be radical). My sister and her husband visited Turkey one time from a cruise ship and they love it. It's a very beautiful country and they were very surprised how open it is. It is a very metropolitan country. For that reason I can't see how Turkey would be more conservative if it's leaning towards a more Islamic way of life. Sorry if I come out seeming like anti-Islam or anything, I am NOT, I want to clarify that.


I think turkey is doing this because plan A - join the EU and ride the rising tide of western value and economic model - has foundered on European Islamophobia and histroic prejudice against Turkey. To be something more than just a second rate state caught in limbo between the west and Islamic world, it has to resort to plan B - amass a sphere of influence of its own in the Islamic world.

If you can't join them, beat them.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I think turkey is doing this because plan A - join the EU and ride the rising tide of western value and economic model - has foundered on European Islamophobia and histroic prejudice against Turkey. To be something more than just a second rate state caught in limbo between the west and Islamic world, it has to resort to plan B - amass a sphere of influence of its own in the Islamic world.
I tend to agree with this.

However, at this point I do not believe it has really become an "either," "or," proposition. Turkey seems to me to be walking mora a path of both at the moment...trying to keep both options open.

But that just my opinion on it.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
I tend to agree with this.

However, at this point I do not believe it has really become an "either," "or," proposition. Turkey seems to me to be walking mora a path of both at the moment...trying to keep both options open.

But that just my opinion on it.

I think so too Jeff. I believe Turkey will continue to be a member of NATO, but not the EU (or yet). For some reason economically the EU is shunning Turkey. Turkey has a good economy going and the government and banks looks stable, so why not?:confused:
 

Kurt

Junior Member
Just curious Kurt, is Turkey doing this out of economic interests or religion? A lot of Western news that I've read have Turkey leaning more towards Islam (that may or may not be radical). My sister and her husband visited Turkey one time from a cruise ship and they love it. It's a very beautiful country and they were very surprised how open it is. It is a very metropolitan country. For that reason I can't see how Turkey would be more conservative if it's leaning towards a more Islamic way of life. Sorry if I come out seeming like anti-Islam or anything, I am NOT, I want to clarify that.

The ruling AKP is under the leadership of Erdogan. When initially seizing power, the EU membership aspirations were used to get rid of the existing undemocratic influences entrenched in the military and bureaucracy. The replacement of these influences by AKP conform figures turned out no less undemocratic. Being member of the right party counted more than any professional qualifications. The EU has already their share of problematic members such as Romania, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Taking in Turkey would have posed major problems. It remains clear that the AKP politics are an unsustainable course that leads into a crash and Turkey is a very large country.
Within Europe, the popular opinion is divided, there's a kind of wide-spread Euro-nationalism that considers Turkey(90%Asia) and Russia(with all that Asian territory) un-European countries and the Ukraine a borderline case. In some European countries they have a majority, in others they are slightly less than half the population. For both, Russia and Turkey, EU membership would be a tough going.
The situation for Turkish EU membership did improve with all the bad press about the AKP corruption and the reception of the Gezi park protests. A non-AKP gouvernment of Turkey will have a much improved EU membership negotiation position. The problem boils down to AKP dictatorship/corruption/Islamism and is to a diminishing degree traceable to prejudices against Turks.

The reduction of prejudices against Turks in my opinion is related to the OECD research on education performance. Germany was quite shocked by the initial results and is still undergoing a major reform of the education system. One of the first issues tackled, was integrating more immigrant talent (such as 3rd generation Turks living in the country) into the elite schools of the three thier system. 20-25% Gymnasium (elite) 60% Realschule (normal) 15-20% Hauptschule (underperformers). This elite school system, the Gymnasium, has a very strong lobby by organized parents (with major influence on decision in the education system because parents with Gymnasium education reproduce that with their children at any cost). Integrating the many talents of migratory descent among the group of Gymnasium children and parents provides one of the steps for changing perception of Turks as one of us and not them. Contributing to that integration is the loss of Turkish grammar amaong Germany's Turks. This is little known to most non-Turkish speakers, but most German Turks have only one or none language with grammar and this is German. It's very difficult for them to express themselves with non-German sentences.
Another factor are politics, the environmentalist Green party outperforms all competitors in its capability to integrate immigrants into leading positions. Chem Özdemir of Turkish origin is one of the elected leaders of that party and Al Wazir of Arabic origin is currently co-ruler of one of the 16 federal states of Germany.
A third factor is soccer/football. Since the FIFA World Cup 2006 the Attitude of Germans towards showing their national colours was turned around 180°. Now during such events the landscape is full with the national colours (black, red, gold/yellow) and we have conflicts between extreme left wing groups and immigrants because immigrants are patriots showing proudly the flag of their adopted country, Germany, and the extreme left groups are still stuck in the pre-2006 mode of negating national pride and hidding national colours. It's quite bizarre that within a few years immigrants turn out proud German nationals, who invest a lot into showing the national symbol of the country they learned to love and German born left wing groups keep destroying these expressions, because they do not feel comfortable with any expression of national pride. And in the middle of these strange development stand figures such as Mesut Özil (the best German soccer player and of Turkish descendent, in a relationsship with the cousin of one of the most popular German born local pop stars) and many more.
Since the decade AKP took power in Turkey, attitudes towards Turks(synonym for immigrants) as nationals are turning around 180° from prior prejudices in Germany and the prejudices against Turkish EU membership are being transformed to a discussion of actual AKP policy problems from the previous "Christo-Judaic tradition of Europe with no historic presence of Islam"-credo. Strongest supporters of the Turkish EU aspirations are the moderately left-wing social democrats in Germany and Europe, while the opposition is entrenched in conservative right wing Euro-nationalism with religious overtures. The simils of the national-religious AKP in Europe do deny the AKP entrance into that club because they don't want a Muslim component.
I'm moderately left leaning as you can see. Depending on whom you talk too, the Turkish integration is either advocated via Istanbul and Izmir culture or rejected via Eastern Anatolia culture. A stable consensus has not yet been formed and negotiations are ongoing.
Erdogan seems most interested in staying indefinitely in power (an 8 year limit would benefit many European countries) and switches ideology as required for that ultimate goal. By turning the back towards Europe he is doing European integration of Turkey a great favour, because Erdogan and AKP get strongly associated with all the unwanted East Anatolian traditions and a change of power will inevitably happen.

From this perspective, Erdogans extreme un-NATO and un-EU behaviour is an instable course with the strongest economic interaction of Turkey remaining Europe and not China, Russia or the Middle East. A non-NATO supply of air defence missiles is probable to be put to an early end by the next non-AKP gouvernment of Turkey as these groups have increasing backing in Europe.

Sorry for the lengthy answer, I hope it answers the questions about Turkey as objective as I can.
The Turkish economy is as stable as Greece and Spain - Europe is waiting for the meltdown of their overblown tourism sector.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
The ruling AKP is under the leadership of Erdogan. When initially seizing power, the EU membership aspirations were used to get rid of the existing undemocratic influences entrenched in the military and bureaucracy. The replacement of these influences by AKP conform figures turned out no less undemocratic. Being member of the right party counted more than any professional qualifications. The EU has already their share of problematic members such as Romania, Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain. Taking in Turkey would have posed major problems. It remains clear that the AKP politics are an unsustainable course that leads into a crash and Turkey is a very large country.
Within Europe, the popular opinion is divided, there's a kind of wide-spread Euro-nationalism that considers Turkey(90%Asia) and Russia(with all that Asian territory) un-European countries and the Ukraine a borderline case. In some European countries they have a majority, in others they are slightly less than half the population. For both, Russia and Turkey, EU membership would be a tough going.
The situation for Turkish EU membership did improve with all the bad press about the AKP corruption and the reception of the Gezi park protests. A non-AKP gouvernment of Turkey will have a much improved EU membership negotiation position. The problem boils down to AKP dictatorship/corruption/Islamism and is to a diminishing degree traceable to prejudices against Turks.

The reduction of prejudices against Turks in my opinion is related to the OECD research on education performance. Germany was quite shocked by the initial results and is still undergoing a major reform of the education system. One of the first issues tackled, was integrating more immigrant talent (such as 3rd generation Turks living in the country) into the elite schools of the three thier system. 20-25% Gymnasium (elite) 60% Realschule (normal) 15-20% Hauptschule (underperformers). This elite school system, the Gymnasium, has a very strong lobby by organized parents (with major influence on decision in the education system because parents with Gymnasium education reproduce that with their children at any cost). Integrating the many talents of migratory descent among the group of Gymnasium children and parents provides one of the steps for changing perception of Turks as one of us and not them. Contributing to that integration is the loss of Turkish grammar amaong Germany's Turks. This is little known to most non-Turkish speakers, but most German Turks have only one or none language with grammar and this is German. It's very difficult for them to express themselves with non-German sentences.
Another factor are politics, the environmentalist Green party outperforms all competitors in its capability to integrate immigrants into leading positions. Chem Özdemir of Turkish origin is one of the elected leaders of that party and Al Wazir of Arabic origin is currently co-ruler of one of the 16 federal states of Germany.
A third factor is soccer/football. Since the FIFA World Cup 2006 the Attitude of Germans towards showing their national colours was turned around 180°. Now during such events the landscape is full with the national colours (black, red, gold/yellow) and we have conflicts between extreme left wing groups and immigrants because immigrants are patriots showing proudly the flag of their adopted country, Germany, and the extreme left groups are still stuck in the pre-2006 mode of negating national pride and hidding national colours. It's quite bizarre that within a few years immigrants turn out proud German nationals, who invest a lot into showing the national symbol of the country they learned to love and German born left wing groups keep destroying these expressions, because they do not feel comfortable with any expression of national pride. And in the middle of these strange development stand figures such as Mesut Özil (the best German soccer player and of Turkish descendent, in a relationsship with the cousin of one of the most popular German born local pop stars) and many more.
Since the decade AKP took power in Turkey, attitudes towards Turks(synonym for immigrants) as nationals are turning around 180° from prior prejudices in Germany and the prejudices against Turkish EU membership are being transformed to a discussion of actual AKP policy problems from the previous "Christo-Judaic tradition of Europe with no historic presence of Islam"-credo. Strongest supporters of the Turkish EU aspirations are the moderately left-wing social democrats in Germany and Europe, while the opposition is entrenched in conservative right wing Euro-nationalism with religious overtures. The simils of the national-religious AKP in Europe do deny the AKP entrance into that club because they don't want a Muslim component.
I'm moderately left leaning as you can see. Depending on whom you talk too, the Turkish integration is either advocated via Istanbul and Izmir culture or rejected via Eastern Anatolia culture. A stable consensus has not yet been formed and negotiations are ongoing.
Erdogan seems most interested in staying indefinitely in power (an 8 year limit would benefit many European countries) and switches ideology as required for that ultimate goal. By turning the back towards Europe he is doing European integration of Turkey a great favour, because Erdogan and AKP get strongly associated with all the unwanted East Anatolian traditions and a change of power will inevitably happen.

From this perspective, Erdogans extreme un-NATO and un-EU behaviour is an instable course with the strongest economic interaction of Turkey remaining Europe and not China, Russia or the Middle East. A non-NATO supply of air defence missiles is probable to be put to an early end by the next non-AKP gouvernment of Turkey as these groups have increasing backing in Europe.

Sorry for the lengthy answer, I hope it answers the questions about Turkey as objective as I can.
The Turkish economy is as stable as Greece and Spain - Europe is waiting for the meltdown of their overblown tourism sector.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Kurt. This will give me an idea whenever there's news or current events about Turkey. Just curious what's the population percentage in Turkey that are either Istanbul and Izmir culture vs. Eastern Anatolia culture?
 

SteelBird

Colonel
I tend to agree with this.

However, at this point I do not believe it has really become an "either," "or," proposition. Turkey seems to me to be walking mora a path of both at the moment...trying to keep both options open.

But that just my opinion on it.

Jeff, if your opinion turns out to be something right. I think it's dangerous. The Thai idiom says "จับปลาสองมือ" (roughly translate: chase two rabbits and catch none). If one day the NATO thinks that Turkey is betrayer or can't be trusted, and decide to give it up; then the Chinese might also think that Turkey is a former NATO member, and is somehow not reliable, Turkey will then ends up like a lamb being abandoned in the desert. mee... mee...
 

FarkTypeSoldier

Junior Member
Question:

How does Turkey purchasing Chinese Air Defense system got to do with US findings? You mean if Aster or Patriot system got the deal the US congress is going to fund either of these deals but not S300 or FD2000?
 

Kurt

Junior Member
The US does not allow military aid to go into unwanted purchases such as Chinese systems. That makes the investment more expensive for Turkey (and the decision is rigged in favour of US systems).

Istanbul has 13 million and Izmir 3 million inhabitants in a country of 75 millions. Most Turks live on the coasts, Eastern Anatolia is landlocked.
The Eastern Anatolia argument doesn't count people, but land visible on a map and outrageous stories in the news - they do not want to know any Turks personally.

Within the European Union, Germany has the largest Turkish minority and is the most influential country. The EU is split on the topic of Turkey joining the club.
For this reason, Turkish integration in Germany matters a lot for Turkish aspirations of joining the EU as Germany is currently saying nay (under Merkel, the opposition is for maybe).
This divide between seeing Istanbul(left wing) and Eastern Anatolia(right wing) goes further, it's also a divide between "Leitkultur"(right wing) and "Multikulti"(left wing).
Both concepts are influential in shaping a German community of mixed origins and shared and differing cultural outlooks.
The glue for integration is largely the pride and effort put into the education system's recognized performance and support for the national team during the football/soccer cups.
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To judge the migration issue in Germany the 4-3-2 formula is helpful. 1/4=25% of the population are immigrants, 1/3=33% of marriages have one spouse who is immigrant, 1/2=50% of all children born have at least one parent who is immigrant. This issue is less obvious if you look at statistics of ethnic identity because many immigrants are Germans from parts of Europe East of Germany, who have been immigrating in large numbers since the fall of the iron curtain. Their cultural and appearance differences to local Germans are not that obvious to outsiders as the more pronounced non-German immigrants. The massive inflow of migration does not mean that the society is very tolerant. With at least one German local parent you have equal chances in education, with both parents immigrant you have lesser chances for the same talent. Muslim and darker skinned African immigrants have the toughest challenges in this society (Annan, Obama and Mandela would have had a hard time finding a job and a flat).
There's still happening a landslide change in Germany (with all that migration), two Muslims are leading figures of the influential environmentalist Green party. Tarek al-Wazir and Cem Özdemir. The next gouvernment without Angela Merkel (the popular current chancellor) will have them in leading positions. One is of Arabic descend, the other of Turkish.
Migration to Germany is getting even more important in the wake of EU integration and Euro-money troubles, because this center of Europe has low costs of living and a high per capita income in the most populous country of Europe. Unemployment is quite low for European standards, while migration to work here is very high.

Current Turkish policy is best interpreted through an outlook on keeping the AKP of Erdogan as long as possible in power, while getting the families rich on bribes (widespread in Turkey). There's no longterm goal other than getting rich as long as possible. All these U-turns serve a narrative of Turkish independent great power achieved by the AKP. Turkey was formerly one of the great powers of Europe and ever since falling from grace, they wanted that status back.
 
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Equation

Lieutenant General
The US does not allow military aid to go into unwanted purchases such as Chinese systems. That makes the investment more expensive for Turkey (and the decision is rigged in favour of US systems).

I believe Turkey will continue to operate some of its air defenses under NATO for now, if or until they get that FD-2000 tot from China and start making their own air defense system. Once Turkey are able to produce enough of their own FD-2000 it will slowly stop depending on NATO system. So in the long run not only this will save Turkey money, but they could also sell some of their FD-2000 under license and agreement of course to neighboring countries in the Middle East and North Africa. This would give Turkey more political and economic leverage as well.
 
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