China Navy Power

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tphuang said:
FuManChu, are you serious? You seriously need to check
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and see how much threat China faces from America. Or go watch Lou Dobb on CNN and see who is America's number one enemy.
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I should ask are you serious in taking the most extreme examples and trying to make them indicative of the whole country. You might as well point to Osama Bin Laden when talking about how much of a threat Islam is to the world. Freerepublic.com is not the website of the American government, nor is Lou Dobb the President.

Or maybe the US should point to certain Chinese generals that threaten nuclear war and extremist Chinese nationalist websites as an example of how dangerous China is to regional security. It works both ways.

South Korea, Japan, Singapore and Australia and anyone in Rimpac can expect America to protect them.
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Those countries are not banking on the US bailing them out under any and all circumstances, which is why they have been working on improving their own navies.

We can safely say that America would not be jumping on the chance to help China if one of the navies in the sea lane to Middle East decides to block China.
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The US wouldn't necessarily be "jumping at the chance", but if China seriously couldn't do it, I think Washington would help (unless relations were at an all-time low). As I pointed out, China's economy is important to the US, and the Americans know that. They could also get a concession or two out of China at the same time.

At the same time, it has to be stronger on its own than the entire Indian navy.
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Isn't that rather asking too much? After all India is way ahead of China in the carrier game.
 
Finn McCool

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TpHuang is right. The South Sea Fleet must be the most powerful of the three. I would just like to add that it must deal with the Mallaca-Java-Singapore (MJS) chokepoint. It is for the SSF like the GIUK Gap was for the Soviet North Sea Fleet. The SSF needs sufficent force to punch its way through the MJS Gap against heavy opposition in order to get through to the Indian Ocean. Look at a map. That enviroment is a defenders dream. Small islands, shallow water and narrow straits, as well as the Andaman Islands providing an absolutely ideal blocking position for the Indian Navy to cover the Straits of Mallaca. The Singaporese Military could prevent the South Sea Fleet from pushing through. Thus the SSF needs more force in order to deal with the additional challenges posed to it by geography.

Geography is hard on the PLAN, from all directions.
 
S

Scratch

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Well that Mallaca strait point is, or could be a very difficult point. In a theoretical confrontation the PLAN force could face more than one navy there, and would have to supress all the land based assets there. And afterwards still have sufficient strike capabilities. But that might be the worst case.
Anyway, in a future conflict PLAN might be engaged at more than one location, meaning perhaps all three fleets are in theater.
 
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Shingy

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China have kind of got battered in the past, and maybe one reason they have got invaded those times is because their navy was just that rubbish, did it really take them this long to realise that they should do something about that.

Wounds like these have probably pushed China to perhaps finally pursue a more modern navy that is equal to western standards, since they probably feel the need to be able to fend off any kind of threat.

I think they have the potential to have a world class navy, such as America's or Japan's, i am not sure what China is actually like, i was thinking about my earlier point of China being invaded so easily before that they may have a defensive navy like Japan but i feel as if China want to be a more global power like the US, i am not really too knowledgeable in this area.

Isn't that rather asking too much? After all India is way ahead of China in the carrier game.
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Going on this point just because India is way ahead of China in the carrier game does that necessarily mean that the rest of China's navy is also way behind India?
 
D

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Shingy said:
Going on this point just because India is way ahead of China in the carrier game does that necessarily mean that the rest of China's navy is also way behind India?
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Of course not, but TP was talking about carriers. When it comes to that India has a sizeable advantage and will do for some time. When China actually had two operational carriers it could use, India will probably have the same number if not more. So I think it is unreasonable to insist one Chinese fleet can defeat the whole Indian Navy. It would be more reasonable to say that China should aim to be able to "challenge" an Indian carrier group.
 
Hendrik_2000

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I doubt that Singapore will be on US side if Taiwan declare independent. The present prime minister LHL personaly visit taiwan and tell them not to expect any help from Singapore or any Asean country,
if they declare independent because he was convinced that China will declare war win or loose.

Unless China attacked Taiwan unprovoked Don't expect help from Singapore

Sofar Vietnam refused to allow US to use the old Cam ranh bay naval base out of deferrence to China Even though Vietnam fought a border war with China. China settle most of their border dispute with the neigboring countries except with the Indian
 
tphuang

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FuManChu said:
I should ask are you serious in taking the most extreme examples and trying to make them indicative of the whole country. You might as well point to Osama Bin Laden when talking about how much of a threat Islam is to the world. Freerepublic.com is not the website of the American government, nor is Lou Dobb the President.

Or maybe the US should point to certain Chinese generals that threaten nuclear war and extremist Chinese nationalist websites as an example of how dangerous China is to regional security. It works both ways.
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FuManChu, it looks like you live in UK, so you have no idea of the anti-Chinese atmosphere in America. China is basically the American congress' new whipping boy, especially after the democrats took power after the midterm election. It doesn't matter what the Chinese generals said, regardless of who provoked what, US looks at China has its number 1 enemy. It's on the QDR.
Those countries are not banking on the US bailing them out under any and all circumstances, which is why they have been working on improving their own navies.
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Whether they need it or not is a different story, but America will help those countries in RimPac out if situation comes to be.
Isn't that rather asking too much? After all India is way ahead of China in the carrier game.
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Actually, it's a far more difficult challenge for North And East Sea Fleet to overcome JMSDF + ROCN than for SSF to overcome IN. My point wasn't about what China is able to do, but in order to protect its interest, what it must do.

And no, it's not asking for too much for a Chinese carrier group to defeat Indian ones. Consider what they can throw out at each other in open waters. India does not have any nuclear subs, so the Chinese blue water weakness in ASW would not be a problem here. At the same time, the 093s would pose danger to Indian carrier group as the only viable submarine in the confrontation. The indian carriers will be smaller than Chinese ones, meaning that China will be able to carry larger and more capable fighters + carrier based AEWs. We are looking at Mig-29Ks + LCA-N + ka-31 vs naval flanker + naval J-10 + Y-7 AEW. The air defense capability of the current Chinese DDGs and FFGs with the induction of 052C series and 054A will be superior to anything IN has to offer with Delhi and Talwar. Therefore, you have better protection for your carrier from both the escorts and the fighters. So, India may very well be able to send out more carriers/naval fighters + shorter ranged ships than SSF, but it seriously lacks in AAW and the submarine threat.

Also, now that I think about it, PLAN's general weakness in ASW could be fully exploited by countries like Singapore, Indonesia and Malaysia. You have extremely advanced SSKs there like the Scorpene, Amur and whatever Singapore has. That's why SSF needs LHD with ASW helicopters and nuclear subs in order to counter this threat.
 
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Sczepan

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FuManChu said:
But you have to rely on other countries to an extent - China couldn't afford a navy that could escort every single ship that heads towards or from China 24/7. This is why I am a little sceptical of the "sea lanes" argument, as it isn't possible to protect all of them at the same time. That applies to all countries, not just China.
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every single ship would be a single sheep - but these single ships could build a convoy, escortet by a group of navy ships, like the US and England have done in the atlantic war.
In the next 20 yrs china need the merchant sea lines esp. to and from africa furthermore, and they have to escort this ships in case of an conflict all the way across the indic ocean.
I don't believe in a war India ./. China,
but in case of any Taiwan-Conflict the US could controll these sea lines in using Diego Garica
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and
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like a spider in her net - see the map at
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Escortet convois would increase the safety of chinese merchant ships ....
 
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D

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tphuang said:
FuManChu, it looks like you live in UK, so you have no idea of the anti-Chinese atmosphere in America.
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I know perfectly well that there are anti-Chinese attitudes in the US. But as I said there are things China could do to reduce tensions, just as there are things that it cannot change, nor should try to even if technically it could (such as revaluing the Yuan too much). But then again there are also lots of anti-US attitudes in China. If you want to have a comparison, there are more negative feelings about the US in China than vice versa.

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If China just uses feelings in the US as an excuse not to try to change or a reason to do X, it will just lead to a vicious circle. The US says China is a problem, China gets annoyed and tells the US to shut up, the US sees that as evidence China isn't interested in compromise, so it takes a tougher/more defensive line, anti-US sentiment grows in China (and it is already pretty high), etc.

And no, it's not asking for too much for a Chinese carrier group to defeat Indian ones.
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You didn't say that - you said the entire Indian Navy. That is asking too much.
 
bd popeye

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Hendrik_2000 said:
So far Vietnam refused to allow US to use the old Cam ranh bay naval base out of deferrence to China Even though Vietnam fought a border war with China. China settle most of their border dispute with the neigboring countries except with the Indian
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You know I've read this many, many times. Claims that the US wants to use Cam Ranh Bay as a base. But i cannnot find anything offical to back that statement up. Right now the US has ships in Hawaii, Guam and of course Japan. USN ships have made several posrt visits to Vietnam over the last 4 years.

I did find this about Cam Ranh Bay;

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Cam Ranh Bay, to be vacated by the Russians in 2004 and eyed by this American reporter as among the world's most beautiful beaches since his first landing there in April 1970, may soon be available for commercial development. But then again,....

Overall ties between America and Vietnam have warmed since the coming into force on 10 December 2001 of the BTA, an agreement establishing normal trade ties. Washington agreed to lower its high tariffs on Vietnamese products, while Hanoi pledged to allow foreign companies to compete on more equal terms with its state-owned enterprises.

US Pacific commander Admiral Dennis Blair reportedly said closer cooperation is possible in fighting terrorism, narcotics, international crime, piracy, and in humanitarian assistance and international peacekeeping as he expressed a U.S. interest in possible visits by American naval ships to Cam Ranh Bay.

The US military is seeking an "arrangement" that will allow it to use the base at Cam Ranh Bay for port calls and support for its operations in southeast Asia, Blair told reporters after talks here with Vietnamese officials. But Washington is not looking to set up a permanent base here or anywhere else in southeast Asia, he insisted.

Viewed as one of the best natural harbors in the region, the Cam Ranh Bay base was ironically originally built by the Americans but lost to the then Soviet Union following the US humiliation in the Vietnam War.

Last year a cash-strapped Moscow announced that it would give up the base when its 25-year lease runs out in 2004 as it can no longer afford it.

"The status of Cam Ranh Bay has obviously now changed with the end of the Russian lease," said Blair.

US ambassador Raymond Burghardt said one possible arrangement would be for Vietnam to declare Cam Ranh Bay open to port calls by foreign warships, as it has already done with the ports of HaiPhong and Ho Chi Minh City.

That arrangement would not be exclusive to the United States but would allow port calls by its warships.

"Vietnam has taken the position that its ports are open to ship visits on a multilateral basis," said Burghardt.

"Vietnam will have to decide whether to open Cam Ranh Bay to ship visits. If it is open to ship visits, it will be on the same basis as the two existing ports."

In a quick response, the Foreign Ministry of Vietnam said that the port will not be exclusively set aside for military purposes, but the door is open for visits from ships of all kinds and many nations
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I don't believe in a war India ./. China,
but in case of any Taiwan-Conflict the US could controll these sea lines in using Diego Garica
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I also do not for see any war between India and China. Diego Garcia is poised and ready for any conflict in the Indian ocean. The US and it's allies have all sorts of equipment pre-positioned there. I was stationed there in the mid-80's. Not much has changed as far as the bases mission. There is now more USAF there on a rotational basis.
 
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