China Flanker Thread II

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tphuang

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Does the J-11B have an IRST and MAWS? I'm presuming that the J-11D has these, and that an upgraded J-11B would skip this

There should be more than enough other fighters with IRST and MAWS anyway eg. 200+ J-16, 170+ J-10C, the J-20s.
So the J-11BG could specialise in BVR with PL-15, with others fighters tasked with getting closer in.

I would agree that new J-16 are preferably to new J-11D

I believe J-11Bs do have IRST and MAW. In fact, all the flankers have IRST. The flankers always had this advantage over J-10 of more space for IRST, MAWs and larger EW suites. All the J-11Bs units should be upgraded with something comparable to J-16s in radar, passive sensors and EW suite. That along with J-15/16 orders + J-35 development is a lot of work for SAC. Should keep them busy for a while.
 

sndef888

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I believe J-11Bs do have IRST and MAW. In fact, all the flankers have IRST. The flankers always had this advantage over J-10 of more space for IRST, MAWs and larger EW suites. All the J-11Bs units should be upgraded with something comparable to J-16s in radar, passive sensors and EW suite. That along with J-15/16 orders + J-35 development is a lot of work for SAC. Should keep them busy for a while.
I think I read somewhere that some EW variants have IRST removed, not sure though
 

Deino

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If I'm not mistaken, then these three PLAAF J-11BG fighters have a 70x0x serial number - at least it looks like 70305 & 70400 -, which fits to the 89th Air Brigade at Pulandian, Northern Theater Command.

(Image via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo)

J-11BG maybe 70305 + 70400 - 89. Brig.jpg
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1643620490133.png
 

plawolf

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J-11/A really were very much like the original Su-27s except for ability to fire R-77s and maybe some minor avionics upgrade or using more composites. I think they are going to start retiring them in the next few years. J-11B is the major change to use mostly domestic systems and utilize all of China's AAMs. They are the first ones to get WS-10 series engine. Their ground attack capabilities is probably limited like J-10A.

I think all the work devoted to "J-11D" is really to test out the subsystems needed to eventually upgrade J-11B to using more modern avionics and missiles. It really doesn't make sense to produce pure air superiority version of J-11s at this point. Since there is still a lot of time left in the air frame, it makes sense to keep them around probably into the 2030s. It's worth upgrading all of them to more modern standard. J-11Ds don't make a lot of sense when J-16 program has been such a success. Since flankers future in PLA is a multi-role aircraft, two seat versions make a lot more sense than single seaters. A lot of the attack duties for PLAAF/PLANAF still fall on the shoulders of JH-7/A. Over time, they will start retiring the original JH-7s first and followed by JH-7As. That along with the increasing numbers of J-20s point to a transition of J-16s to more attacking roles. They will be around until probably 2040s at least. After all, USAF intends to keep F-15Es around until 2050. There is no reason for PLAAF to retire J-16s sooner.

I did a rough count right now based huitong's site and scramble. I think there have probably been about 250 J-11B/BS produced over its lifetime. I also counted around 160 to 170 J-16s based on huitong's gallery and scramble. Scramble does point to 2 additional brigade without photos on huitong's page. I would attribute that to newer brigade that have not been captured on photos yet. I could see a little over 200 J-16s right now in service based on units that have not been photographed yet. If J-16 production goes on for another 5 years, we could be looking well over 300 J-16s by the end. They have probably been producing 30 to 40 domestic flankers a year since 2010 if we also include the J-15s. If we include all the J-15 programs, we are probably looking at 700 domestic flankers when is finished. That's quite a successful program.

Back in 2007, I always thought it was more likely that J-10 production would far exceed flanker series. That's what all the online Chinese sources suggested. It's quite interesting that we will probably end up with more J-11B/15/16s than J-10s. That really does speak for the success of the J-20 program. Maybe also the versatility of flankers. Or maybe SAC not being as successful with 5th gen program as SAC.
I think you may be missing the biggest contributing factor to this shift in the hi-lo mix, which probably have nothing to do with the specific capabilities and merits of the airframes themselves - the changing strategic picture.

When the J10 was introduced, the plan was to fight over or close to the mainland shores. The PLAAF at the time had limited or even no ambition for sustained combat operations further from home as such aspirations would have been deemed wholly unattainable at the time. In addition, the J10 was designed to fight enemy aircraft with superior tech and weapons, as can be seen from its limited munitions load. Back in the 90s, it would have been considered a massive success if a J10 could kill an enemy in BVR and another in WVR before dying, as the PLAAF would have been happy with an even exchange rate against enemy fighters. As such, being able to carry a dozen+ AAMs was not really a capability the PLA really expected to realistically need.

These days, I think the operational requirements and expected primary battlespace has shifted significantly outwards, where the PLAAF is no longer looking to be fighting foreign assets over the Easter Chinese coast, but rather the decisive battles are now expected to be fought over water in the east and south China seas, as such I think the J10 has fallen out of favour due to range and payload considerations.
 

GTI

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If I'm not mistaken, then these three PLAAF J-11BG fighters have a 70x0x serial number - at least it looks like 70305 & 70400 -, which fits to the 89th Air Brigade at Pulandian, Northern Theater Command.

(Image via @沉默的山羊 from Weibo)

View attachment 81959
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View attachment 81958
Are J-11BG the ones rumoured to have AESA?

Also, I didn’t want to derail the other thread, but seeing as I’ve asked an OT question, I’ll finish it with - happy belated birthday Deino!

I hope somebody informs XAC of this auspicious date, maybe they’ll release a little teaser as a gift :p
 

Deino

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Yes, J-11As.


I think did not mean the licences J-11 and J-11A but the real original Su-27SK/UBK … in fact, if you don‘t see their construction numbers, a Su-27SK is virtually identical to a Batch 00 & 01 J-11, only the slightly improved J-11A is a bit different.
 

lcloo

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Does anyone know whether the original Su-27SK and UBKs are still in service?
We have seen photos of SU-27UBK conversion fighters still coming out from China, indicating that they are still in service. J11/J11A which are Chinese assembled SU-27SK, are also still in service.
However, it is hard to determine if all originally imported SU-27SK are still flying because they cannot be distinguished from Chinese assembled J11/J11A.
 
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