China Flanker Thread II

[plawolf]

I think I may have finally figured out the PLAAF’s obsession with rockets.

For the PLAAF, they cannot expect to have the kind of almost impunity in the skies that western air forces have enjoyed in recent lopsided conflicts.

That means flying high dropping LGBs is pretty much suicidal, but large stand-off missiles are ill suited against mobile targets of opportunity.

Rocket pods allows PLAAF strikers to come in low, to avoid medium and long range SAMs, fire off a salvo at close range, and zoom away out of LOS before short range SAMs and AAA could effectively respond.

High risk and far from ideal, but potentially the most effective and efficient way in providing CAS in heavily defended and contested airspace, where time is of the essence and the PLAAF doesn’t have weeks or months to mount a systematic DEAD campaign to weed out all enemy air defence assets before having to commit ground troop sea air assets to support them.

This is potentially a good illustration on why the US is so determined to keep the Taiwan status quo - it is the obesession that China cannot turn away from, significantly affecting its strategic planning and even force structure.

 

[Insignius]

They should just stop being cheap and produce a Sino-Brimstone.

A few JH-7As, or whatever plane that has GMTI-radars, carrying a dozen of them could destroy a battalion of tanks at stand-off range in a single pass with fire and forget, and zoom away. Much better and safer than rockets.

But I guess it takes a bloody nose until the PLAAF understands that. Same as with the PLA and their obsession of not handing out body armor and individual radios, "because they are luxury a good soldier dont need" (which is just the excuse for being cheap/corrupt). Old thinking prevails for worse.

 

[ougoah]

I'm only disputing the claim that only single seat aircraft are suitable for the A2A role, the IAF deliberately choose the MKI to be a two seater. The Russians on the other hand designed the Su-35 as a single seater.... PAK-FA has always been a single seater, but the Indians specified the FGFA as a two seater.

Its rather arrogant to assume that we know more than people who spec out their aircraft differently than we would?

There are always performance penalties when weight and complexity increase, but there may also be advantages that we are un-aware of??

I recall only expressing surprise and curiosity that IAF chooses to go with twin seats for some AA fighters. I never claimed that only single seat aircraft are suitable. Please stop taking my statements out of context and misrepresenting them. You have such an annoying habit of doing this. I've not been arrogant in saying the IAF is silly in choosing this path, only ever expressed doubt that MKI is pure AA only because there are so many associated costs with including that second pilot which Victor touched on. There are no modern AA focused fighters with two seats outside of IAF requirements. They know what's best for them I have no doubt but using FGFA as an example is a poor choice to counter the argument since it is pure vaporware at this stage. Rafale is "omnirole", others with second seat are almost always for some multirole purpose. MKI stands out as an exception because either IAF knows better about their own requirements (obviously I'm not disputing this at all) and/or MKI is actually very much multirole capable and makes good use of that second pilot with all the associated extra costs.

You are right about second set of eyes and extra pilot being useful and it certainly was the case decades ago (the examples brought up I think were F-14 and Tornado) but modern fighters require that second pilot less so and it makes little sense in accommodating for that very rare occasion when he can be very useful. Modern fighters depend more on software and basic machine learning to assist. F-35 is a great example of how the most multirole platform today, operating within the most networked ecosystem, needs only one pilot.

 

[Deino]

Guys... can we leave out India, the IAF and the Su-30MKI ... its irrelevant and off topic.

 

[plawolf]

They should just stop being cheap and produce a Sino-Brimstone.

A few JH-7As, or whatever plane that has GMTI-radars, carrying a dozen of them could destroy a battalion of tanks at stand-off range in a single pass with fire and forget, and zoom away. Much better and safer than rockets.

But I guess it takes a bloody nose until the PLAAF understands that. Same as with the PLA and their obsession of not handing out body armor and individual radios, "because they are luxury a good soldier dont need" (which is just the excuse for being cheap/corrupt). Old thinking prevails for worse.

Different weapons for different targets.

Brimstone is at best a waste, but more likely completely ineffective against things like dug in infantry/artillery, bunkers, fortifications and the like. You know, things a PLA amphibious assault might become bogged down by.

Rockets are an area effect weapon, you have forward spotters call out grid references, and zoomies comes in and blankets the area with rocket fire.

That’s not the kind of effect a similar payload of brimstone could hope to achieve.

For anti-massed armour, the PLA already have air launched sensor fused weapons, which are far more economical and effective than massed brimstone attacks.

 

[Iron Man]

Different weapons for different targets.

Brimstone is at best a waste, but more likely completely ineffective against things like dug in infantry/artillery, bunkers, fortifications and the like. You know, things a PLA amphibious assault might become bogged down by.

Rockets are an area effect weapon, you have forward spotters call out grid references, and zoomies comes in and blankets the area with rocket fire.

That’s not the kind of effect a similar payload of brimstone could hope to achieve.

For anti-massed armour, the PLA already have air launched sensor fused weapons, which are far more economical and effective than massed brimstone attacks.

The Brimstone is based on the Hellfire, and if you haven't seen videos of the Hellfire being used to lethal effect against masses of Taliban/ISIS insurgents, you should get on YouTube and start watching. Against bunkers and fortifications these types of missiles are even more suited. Again YouTube is your friend.

 

[Deino]

Just in case anyone did not notice .... the topic is:


China Flanker Thread II

 

[by78]

Some high-resolution photos of J-16...

 

[by78]

Last batch...

 

[davidau]

..J16 needed to be mass-produced in their 100's...