China Flanker Thread II

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paintgun

Senior Member
and we also know that PLAAF likes their two way backup approach in various projects, spare tires like i.e said, don't want the J-20 to be delayed, do we, not saying WS-15 will be late
engine sales from Russia is still going strong, the latest would be the very large purchase of D-30, plus the AL-31s, also the AI-222 in the hundreds from Ukraine

well apart from negotiation complications, i don't see any drawback for China if such a deal to be materialized

pros :
- engines
- getting the latest Russian fighter tech, including ones that is dual used for their 5th gen
- ramping up fighter numbers
- cozying up with the Russians, cause China does have a lot of cash to spare

cons :
- hurting fanboys' pride?

again not saying that this news must be true, but let's just take it with all the possibilities
 

Blitzo

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well apart from negotiation complications, i don't see any drawback for China if such a deal to be materialized

pros :
- engines
- getting the latest Russian fighter tech, including ones that is dual used for their 5th gen
- ramping up fighter numbers
- cozying up with the Russians, cause China does have a lot of cash to spare

cons :
- hurting fanboys' pride?

again not saying that this news must be true, but let's just take it with all the possibilities

Actually cons also include having to rely on russians for maintenance, support, upgrades, training, (all important logistics) and likely additional orders of russian munitions (existing weapons from previous flanker purchases can still be used of course, but newer variants of missiles to take advantage of Su-35's more powerful avionics). Not to mention it's working against the PLA's desire to be self sufficient, and that Su-35 is probably much more expensive than say J-11B with an AESA upgrade. As a plane Su-35 has some nice features but I'd rather they spend money used to buy and support 48 Su-35s instead on AESA upgrades for J-11Bs or more EW/ELINT planes instead.

Despite china's wealth, a purchase of that many planes will cost a bit of moolah and that is moolah that could be used in more productive ways than two regiments of foreign, out of place planes which don't offer that much more than the PLAAF's existing fleets of flankers and JH-7As, and will have a large cost tail to sting in the backside. Suddenly going back from a decade of moving to self reliance is ridiculous.

If it's for looking at engines or subsystems, it's a different matter, but still rather stupid. You don't spend that much money on a complete package when you only want to look or even use their subsystem in your own product. Maybe the russians aren't willing to sell 117s alone. Well then it depends how badly the chinese want the engine, even if it makes no financial sense to buy the entire product. PLAAF may have mo money but even then it's not that much money and won't be able to afford having Su-35 airframes and avionics lying bare without their powerplants.
 

paintgun

Senior Member
agreed 4 bil might not look much for China, but it is a big sum for PLAAF, and certainly a big chunk of their budget but perhaps in reality the budget is not managed as ideally as you have suggested

i disagree on maintenance, spares, and missiles, as PLAAF has operated and is still operating Russian made Flankers with the original equipments, so the footprint is already there

i do not have much left to add on this issue i think
 

Blitzo

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Su-35 is basically a flanker airframe built with modern techniques with new insides. Engines, avionics etc are all new and definitely won't be common to previous flankers. Less significant components may be common but we don't know the nitty grittyof where every weld and screw went and if they're the same across to Su-35.
So there will be a significant hassle with logistics (summary overall) if PLAAF was wanting to operate the planes rather than (unwisely) just buying for the engines. Like I said, older missiles should still be compatible aboard Su-35 and I suggested that as a (still unlikely but among others, more realistic) reason for why they might want flankers. But newer russian missiles can take full advantage of the more powerful radar aboard Su-35 compared to early flankers and MKK/MK2.

Besides logistics and being unable to upgrade their flankers was why PLAAF wanted an indigenous J-11B. Can't see them making the same mistake twice (and then some). Hah, maybe Su-35 is meant to act as opfor in DACT, simulating MKIs or maybe even F-22s (in WVR, as they have TVC and the more powerful engines).
 
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Dizasta1

Senior Member
While on the subject of Su-35s, J-11s and half a dozen more Flanker variants. My question is specifically aimed at PLAAF's doctrine on Net-Centricity. As we all know, fighter-pilots being able to share intel securely, will be able to see the same big picture of the battlefield/air-space. This is a very important capability that gives an Air Force, the advantage of coordinating their attacks and countering any enemy offensives. Hence, what is the position or the priority, that PLAAF has placed on Net-Centricity?

Also, with PLAAF operating J-10A, J-11B, JH-7A, Su-30MKK, Q-5, Su-27SK, KJ-2000, J-8 and Su-27UBK. Are the Chinese putting an effort on streamlining or standardizing a common Data-Link, which all these aircraft can use to communicate with each other, AWACS and Ground Radar Stations? And considering that PLAAF is now buying Russian Su-35 Super Flanker, what would China's approach be to achieve common, secure and efficient Data-Link for combat aircraft in PLAAF and PLANAF?
 

Lion

Senior Member
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Russia cancels sale of Su-33 fighters to China to prevent their pirate copies


10.03.2009








A large arms deal between Russia and China has not taken place over a possible violation of intellectual property rights. Russia has refused to sell Su-33 deck-based fighter jets to China, The Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper wrote.

The talks about the deal began quite a while ago. China intended to buy up to 50 jets for its aircraft carriers, although the country originally wanted to buy only two Su-33 jets on a trial basis. This intention became the bone of contention in the talks between the two countries: Russia believed that the Chinese customers could copy the Russian technology for the production of their own clones of the Russian fighters.

Russia had a motive to think so, the newspaper wrote. In 1995, China received a license for the production of 200 Su-27 fighters of specific modification, complete with Russian avionics, radars and engines. However, Russia terminated the agreement for the purchase of 95 planes in 2006, because Chinese aircraft-makers began to produce a similar fighter, although it was equipped with Chinese avionics and systems.

To put it in a nutshell, China has an experience of cloning the fighters of Russia’s renowned Sukhoi jets. The problem was discussed at the 13th meeting of the Russian-Chinese Committee for Military Cooperation in December. It is obviously highly unprofitable for Russia to let cheaper Chinese analogues of its reputable jets appear in the region.

Russia declined China’s offer to increase the purchase to 14 jets: at least 24 aircraft must be shipped to overbalance the production of planes.




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It is too early to say that the problem has been entirely solved. China is extremely interested in the deck-based aircraft for its aviation. The nation plans to complete its conventional destroyer in 2010 and pass into service a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier in 2020. It is worthy of note that China used to purchase a number of incomplete Soviet vessels of a similar class, which were also reportedly used to copy Russian defense technologies.

China purchased a fair amount of used and incomplete aircraft carriers of the Soviet production within 25 years, BFM business portal said. China could reportedly use the vessels to borrow Russian defense production technologies.

Russia officially notified China at the end of April 2008 that the production of J11 fighter jets, the copies of Russia’s Su-27SK fighters, was a violation of international agreements. Moscow promised to launch legal proceedings to defend its intellectual property. If China learns to build its own version of Russia’s Su-27, the country will easily oust Russia from the arms markets of third world countries. Russian experts believed that it would take the Chinese about ten years to develop their own aircraft engine, but China made it a lot faster.

Russia has delivered 76 Su-27SK to China since 1992, and sold the license for the production of 200 more jets in 1995. China started building its own J11 planes in 1996 with the use of Russian spare parts, The Moskovsky Komsomolets wrote.

The modernized J11 fighter of the Chinese production, presumably made of Chinese spare parts, was outfitted with the enhanced Chinese radar and could carry made-in-China missiles to strike ground targets in the beginning of the 2000s. In 2007, China demonstrated the first prototypes of J11B model, which was almost a complete copy of the Su-27SMK jet.

The Russian economy loses up to $2 billion ever year on the pirate production of various modifications of the renowned Kalashnikov assault rifle, Russia’s major defense export enterprise, Rosoboronexport said. The USSR used to hand over a number of licenses for the production of Kalashnikov rifles and its modifications to 18 countries. All of them expired at the end of the 1980s and in the beginning of the 1990s.

The Sukhoi Su-33 (NATO reporting name ‘Flanker-D’) is a carrier-based multi-role fighter aircraft produced by Russian firm Sukhoi beginning in 1982. It is a derivative of the Su-27 ‘Flanker’ and was initially known as the Su-27K. The main differences from the Su-27 are that the Su-33 can operate from aircraft carriers and is capable of aerial refueling.

Lets have some fun time entertainment.. Remember this news 3 years ago from Russia?.. Russia boast how China desperate to procure 50 Su-30 from Russia, nothing short of it will meants China has no CV fighter jet. Suddenly China has something called J-15 appear. Then a massive U-turn, the deal failed thru and they claimed Russia cancel the deal becos of the copyright issue... Blah Blah Blah.... LOL.. Great entertainment from Russian defence sector. Old trick use twice is boring..
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
Even if the deal would not come through, just the words that the Chinese were interested in buying Su-35 would be endorsement for Su-35 and a diss to China's burgeoning fighter aircraft industry.

Reduced to seeking endorsement via rumors of Chinese 'interests' ? The Russian arms industry has indeed fallen a long way.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
a country that can make 5th generation fighters such as J20 will never be buying aircraft from any outside country
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
My opinion on the Su-35 purchase news - remember the carrier arrester cable B.S. we've been hearing since January?
 

Player99

Junior Member
Over on CD, people dug out old news on China's interest in the Su-33 and some other aircraft and stuff over recent years. And none of them materialized, and now this imminent Su-35 deal...

But guess what? All these pieces have originated from one single Russian newspaper, 生意人报 (anyone know how they translate it into English?)!
 
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