China demographics thread.

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Don't think anyone thinks the CCP is in any danger
It's not that the CPC is in danger of being toppled by shitlibs, but there are insidious influences holding back the Party from full technocratic authoritarianism. Even the CPC has "elections" of a kind (like those happening this year) and has to pander to public opinion, for example by scaling back the beating the housing market so richly deserves to take.

On the subject of demographics, it strikes me that the best model and closest analogue is the traffic light problem. Imagine a city without any traffic lights and the driving habits of that city's inhabitants. How would this problem be solved? The most obvious solution would be to install traffic lights, but that alone is certain to fail since no one would obey them. There has to be punishment meted out to those who violate the new traffic lights.

The "Western" style pro-natal policies of tax breaks, childcare subsidies, etc. are the traffic lights of the analogy. Even generously assuming that the traffic lights work as intended (and in a lot of cases they don't), traffic lights without enforcement won't do anything. This is also why the West will never be able to reverse its fertility decline - any democratic government that so much as contemplates coercive policies is going to be immediately thrown out.

China is in the position of having neither the traffic lights nor the traffic cops. A lot of the policies advocated by people here are punitive, but cops handing out tickets without traffic lights will only breed resentment. China must have a very extensive support system for couples who want children - subsidies, readily available daycare, access to affordable if not free good education, curtailment of abusive labour practices like 996, etc. - all the usual things a socialist society should have. In addition, it should have well-crafted disincentives for people who still refuse to have children, like career curtailment by forcing companies to have quotas for parents in senior positions and priority in pay raises, and escalating taxes on the incomes of childless people to pay for the welfare of two-child families.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
It's not that the CPC is in danger of being toppled by shitlibs, but there are insidious influences holding back the Party from full technocratic authoritarianism. Even the CPC has "elections" of a kind (like those happening this year) and has to pander to public opinion, for example by scaling back the beating the housing market so richly deserves to take.

On the subject of demographics, it strikes me that the best model and closest analogue is the traffic light problem. Imagine a city without any traffic lights and the driving habits of that city's inhabitants. How would this problem be solved? The most obvious solution would be to install traffic lights, but that alone is certain to fail since no one would obey them. There has to be punishment meted out to those who violate the new traffic lights.

The "Western" style pro-natal policies of tax breaks, childcare subsidies, etc. are the traffic lights of the analogy. Even generously assuming that the traffic lights work as intended (and in a lot of cases they don't), traffic lights without enforcement won't do anything. This is also why the West will never be able to reverse its fertility decline - any democratic government that so much as contemplates coercive policies is going to be immediately thrown out.

China is in the position of having neither the traffic lights nor the traffic cops. A lot of the policies advocated by people here are punitive, but cops handing out tickets without traffic lights will only breed resentment. China must have a very extensive support system for couples who want children - subsidies, readily available daycare, access to affordable if not free good education, curtailment of abusive labour practices like 996, etc. - all the usual things a socialist society should have. In addition, it should have well-crafted disincentives for people who still refuse to have children, like career curtailment by forcing companies to have quotas for parents in senior positions and priority in pay raises, and escalating taxes on the incomes of childless people to pay for the welfare of two-child families.

Multi-ethnic, multi-religious Singapore has demonstrated that a technocratic authoritarian government can work and produce better results overall than any liberal democracy in the world.

But Singapore still has a low birth rate and despite pro-natalist policies, these haven't had much effect. However, they've decided that immigration can compensate for this and have made it clear than they will maintain Singapore as 75% ethnically Han Chinese. That works for them because Singapore only has a few million people and they have amongst the world's highest wages and living standards.

China would have to go much further than Singapore in terms of pro-natalist policies, like you've described above.

---

On a broader scale, Singapore works as a technocratic authoritarian government because it is a small island city-state where everyone knows everyone else, so corruption and inefficiency is difficult to hide. Plus it is majority populated by ethnic Chinese with a Confucian philosophical background which emphasises the group over the individual.

With big data and AI making most of the decisions, it's conceivable that a technocratic authoritarian government in a collective society can produce better results than an individualist liberal democracy. But we won't have a definite conclusion from the China example for decades yet.
 

thailand_guy

Banned Idiot
Registered Member
It's not that the CPC is in danger of being toppled by shitlibs, but there are insidious influences holding back the Party from full technocratic authoritarianism. Even the CPC has "elections" of a kind (like those happening this year) and has to pander to public opinion, for example by scaling back the beating the housing market so richly deserves to take.

On the subject of demographics, it strikes me that the best model and closest analogue is the traffic light problem. Imagine a city without any traffic lights and the driving habits of that city's inhabitants. How would this problem be solved? The most obvious solution would be to install traffic lights, but that alone is certain to fail since no one would obey them. There has to be punishment meted out to those who violate the new traffic lights.

The "Western" style pro-natal policies of tax breaks, childcare subsidies, etc. are the traffic lights of the analogy. Even generously assuming that the traffic lights work as intended (and in a lot of cases they don't), traffic lights without enforcement won't do anything. This is also why the West will never be able to reverse its fertility decline - any democratic government that so much as contemplates coercive policies is going to be immediately thrown out.

China is in the position of having neither the traffic lights nor the traffic cops. A lot of the policies advocated by people here are punitive, but cops handing out tickets without traffic lights will only breed resentment. China must have a very extensive support system for couples who want children - subsidies, readily available daycare, access to affordable if not free good education, curtailment of abusive labour practices like 996, etc. - all the usual things a socialist society should have. In addition, it should have well-crafted disincentives for people who still refuse to have children, like career curtailment by forcing companies to have quotas for parents in senior positions and priority in pay raises, and escalating taxes on the incomes of childless people to pay for the welfare of two-child families.
Largely agree with everything here, alas, I think there is also a non-coercieve propagandistic effort to increase the social value of having children - there's a clear social aspect to childbearing given consistently higher birth rates with religious households; replicating those incentive structures without religion is something that can be explored
 

FriedButter

Major
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

China may see negative population growth in 2022, 12 years earlier than UN prediction: experts

Chinese people aged over 65 have surpassed 14% of the total population in 2021, which is an important indicator and means the country has formally become an aged society, said Zheng Bingwen, director of the Center for International Social Security Studies at the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

Zheng pointed out at Tsinghua PBCSF Global Finance Forum on Sunday that in 2000 China stepped into an aging society when its ratio of aged-population reached 7% and it only took the Chinese society 22 years to transfer from “aging” to “aged” status, a much shorter time period compared with some developed countries such as France, US and Japan who spent 115 years, 69 years and 26 years on the transition respectively.

As China is predicted to become super-aged in 2035 when more than 20% of its people will be above 65, Zheng warned the increasing burden for Chinese young people of supporting the elderly.

Looks like the population may have already peaked.
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Brigadier
Registered Member
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



Looks like the population may have already peaked.
China should really do something about her dropping birth rates and peaking population count.

The rather inaction of the central government of China in addressing this urgent issue is truly beyond me. Merely lifting the limit from One to Two to Three-Child Policy WILL NOT WORK.

There needs to be significant, and I mean SIGNIFICANT, economic and societal benefits and incentives offered by the government to the people in order to encourage them to have as many children as possible.

China is neither a low-income country nor a low-literacy country anymore. That means China should understand that with the living standards of the people being massively upgraded and improved over the past decades, people would no longer produce children like rabbits anymore. Therefore, this should remove the worry that the population would explode again like in the past.

Last but not least, the people should be reminded that they are the fundemental building blocks of their own homeland. If they want to do their patriotic duty as a patriotic citizen, they should give a hand in preserving their home country and helping their own homeland to have a more secure and brighter future.

Who would be there to support the economy and the future of China, when China is massively populated by elders, just like Japan, South Korea and Germany of today?
 
Last edited:

Coalescence

Senior Member
Registered Member
The rather inaction of the central government of China in addressing this urgent issue is truly beyond me. Merely lifting the limit from One to Two to Three-Child Policy WILL NOT WORK.

There needs to be significant, and I mean SIGNIFICANT, economic and societal benefits and incentives offered by the government to the people in order to encourage them to have as many children as possible.
They didn't have any expectation that lifting the limit to three child would fix the problem, they were aware of the problem long since they found out that increasing the limit to two child didn't stabilize the birth rate. The increase in the limit is to signal a shift from a policy of passive and unurgent encouragement of birth, to a more proactive and urgent encouragement of birth.

Many provinces and cities are testing out benefits and incentives, each with different measures according to their capacity for funding and for testing. Having significant benefits and incentives alone, doesn't guarantee the birth rate will be stable in the long-term, and its extremely costly as well, we can see the result of these policies from other aging countries in Europe and Asia. What needs to be done is to tackle other factors that negatively affect birth rate that wasn't done in other countries, like controlling housing prices, reducing childcare and education expenses, making the environment that promotes socialization and fertility, and reintroducing the family values that much of the current generation have lost due to modern pressures and urbanization.

The result of all these incentives the provinces and cities have enacted recently is still to be seen. It would take at least a year to determine if the benefit outweighs the cost, or if there needs to be more supporting measures to achieve the desired result. They shouldn't just enact all birth rate supporting policies they have in mind, what's equally worse to having a low birth rate, is having to spend 10%-20% GDP just to put birth rate at replacement levels, and may lead to unforeseen negative economical and social effects.
China is neither a low-income country nor a low-literacy country anymore. That means China should understand that with the living standards of the people being massively upgraded and improved over the past decades, people would no longer produce children like rabbits anymore. Therefore, this should remove the worry that the population would explode again like in the past.

Last but not least, the people should be reminded that they are the fundemental building blocks of their own homeland. If they want to do their patriotic duty as a patriotic citizen, they should give a hand in preserving their home country and helping their own homeland to have a more secure and brighter future.
One exception to the correlation of developed country status and low birth rate is Israel, the reasons for that is I think have to do with their religious familial practices and beliefs, but they are also coupled with support and benefits to incentivize child growth. China doesn't have to adopt a religion to achieve similar result, they could instill those belief as an ideology like you said, making it a patriotic duty to create a family. But instilling those values alone is not enough, there needs to be promotion of behavior based on those values, like for example, extended family should become the norm, where the elderly would look after their children's children, communities are formed made to support one another's childcare and maternity materially through gifts and babysitting, and celebrations/holidays made to celebrate maternity and children to elevate their status and practice behaviors to help ease the burden of childcare temporarily.

All of these solutions would need planning and time to execute to its fullest extent, but personally I think the closest thing to a silver bullet to this problem is development and maturation of Artificial womb technology, and fortunately there are signs of this technology being explored, like I think few months ago there's news of Chinese scientist creating an AI to monitor fetus development in the womb and can possibly used on artificial womb technology as well, and although this is an insignificant point, Elon Musk is also looking into artificial womb technology, and express interest in investing in such. For now China can prepare to dampen the negative effects of an aged population, through heavy investment into AI and automation, and modernization of industries and supply chain, while also see if they can slow down or even possibly reverse the trend of aging demographic problem using the solutions we discussed in this thread.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
In the longer term the state should use the carrot and the stick on birth rates. It should offer many benefits, but it should also "punish" people who don't have children.
This could be in the form of higher taxes, backseat on promotions in civil service/SOEs, reduced pension payments.

Given that pensions are a ponzi scheme relying on the newer generation to pay for the pensioners, it is natural that if you don't want to have a child, you will be paid less
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
China should really do something about her dropping birth rates and peaking population count.

The rather inaction of the central government of China in addressing this urgent issue is truly beyond me. Merely lifting the limit from One to Two to Three-Child Policy WILL NOT WORK.

There needs to be significant, and I mean SIGNIFICANT, economic and societal benefits and incentives offered by the government to the people in order to encourage them to have as many children as possible.

China is neither a low-income country nor a low-literacy country anymore. That means China should understand that with the living standards of the people being massively upgraded and improved over the past decades, people would no longer produce children like rabbits anymore. Therefore, this should remove the worry that the population would explode again like in the past.

Last but not least, the people should be reminded that they are the fundemental building blocks of their own homeland. If they want to do their patriotic duty as a patriotic citizen, they should give a hand in preserving their home country and helping their own homeland to have a more secure and brighter future.

Who would be there to support the economy and the future of China, when China is massively populated by elders, just like Japan, South Korea and Germany of today?

Low birth rates effect most countries outside Africa and it seems to me that as world becomes more international and globalized average people (who are in the majority) begin seeing things from similar angles. No point having kids as future is extremely uncertain everywhere! Climate problems, economic inecuality growing, food shortages if caused by various reasons, microplastics seen in human body first time, pollution probably increases as global wealth goes up, you can work as much you want but won't see anything improvimg because expenses go up same time, etc.Patriotism? Proles dont want to be cannon fodder anymore or "breed for the country".


All global problems what aren't easy to solve.
 
Top