China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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kroko

Senior Member
Here are some possible reasons:
  • The TELs appeared in China's 2009 Parade might only be for show. It was a parade, after all.
  • Somewhat related to the above point, if WS51200s are equipped to carry DF-31, they might not be able to travel into Urban center. They would be too tall to go under bridges or through tunnels, especially when carried on a rail car.
  • Second Artillery might think road-mobile TELs are sufficed, with the bonus that the TELs can be disguised as civilian trucks.

dont agree with second reason. The truck isnt that tall or heavy and is made to cross normal roads and bridges. The TOPOL missiles get into the center of moscow without any problem.
third reason is also wrong, IMO. strategic assets like ICBM need every survivability that it can get, specially when you dont have as many ICBM as your adversary. off-road capability is essencial for a mobile ICBM. Besides, you cant really disguise this as a civilian truck, it needs a lot of support units to move around.
first reason seems the most probable.


I noticed you have opend a thread about possible breach of UN resolution on the truck photo, and soon shut down by the revenge of Sith Lord.

Without further political dragging, I draw your attention that there is this thing called evidence in need of any accusation, and when A-Q terrorists weilding AK47 do not validates that Russia is funding the terror, and when African rebels riding Toyota pick-ups for the kill do not validates that Japan is behind all the bodycounts... Let's not start finger pointing China only for the looking (or for this case, hearsay), too.

second time i lol at you.

Do you want to compare an AK-47 or toyota pickups, with a 8 axis off-road capable superheavy military truck ???? AFAIK only russia and now china manufacture those kinds of trucks. This is not something that you can get in second-hand or illegally manufactured in some third world country. And by the pictures, its clearly a chinese model.

Wow, all that from a few minutes of a clip shown on CCTV.

yeah. Lots of rumours and speculation, but thats what happens when you have very little information on the subject.
 
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
It's a truck. It's only inherent offensive capability is it's front fender. Such things are not on anyone's arms control list.

The WS51200 is a privately funded project that is in turn based on the WS2600 truck used for DH10/YJ62 cruise missiles, hence the similarities with in service PLA equipment.

Here is the
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, you can buy one yourself if you have a few million lying around spare.

If the PLA thought they needed such a truck to haul their ballistic missiles around, they would have it. But there is really little need when you consider just how much road China has.

Russia needs an all terrain TEL because vast parts of it's territory are undeveloped wilderness. China has the opposite problem, whereby most of it's territory is developed and cultivated. China's nuclear deterrent is aimed primarily at America, and you will really be hard pressed to find many areas in the Eastern Chinese seaboard that doesn't have a road going through it.

For tactical weapons like cruise and anti-ship missiles that want to eek out as much range as possible, off-road is useful, for ICBMs, a few kilometers would not make a blind bit of difference.
 
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montyp165

Senior Member
Boost Phase IRBM and ICBM interceptors could be used to take down DF-21Ds fired at the carrier battlegroup. I mentioned this in an earlier discussion where long endurance drones flying off the carrier could be used as the first line of defense against ASBMs. It seems as though others are having the same idea.

"With North Korea's failed missile launch Friday, it is clear many nations around the globe are attempting to acquire missiles that can carry larger payloads and go further. Such moves have made the United States and its allies very nervous. Missile defense has been debated since the 1980's with such debate back once again the headlines. Most missile defense platforms have technical issues and are very expensive. One idea: use drones instead. '... a high-speed (~3.5 to 5.0 km/s), two-stage, hit-to-kill interceptor missile, launched from a Predator-type UAV can defeat many of these ballistic missile threats in their boost phase.' Could a Drone really take down a North Korea missile? 'A physics-based simulator can estimate the capabilities of a high-altitude, long endurance UAV-launched boost-phase interceptor (HALE BPI) launched from an altitude of approximately 60,000 feet. Enabled by the revolution in UAVs, this proposed boost-phase interceptor, based on off-the-shelf technology, can be deployed in operationally feasible stations on the periphery of North Korea.'"

OTOH, long range fighter aircraft plus counter-missile defence systems can also be used to enhance the penetration capability of DF-21D missiles, on top of other things.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
OTOH, long range fighter aircraft plus counter-missile defence systems can also be used to enhance the penetration capability of DF-21D missiles, on top of other things.

Not to mention such a system would only be useful for relatively small countries with a nonexistent air force and IADS, without much strategic depth.
In the case of north korea or perhaps Iran, such a system could certainly be a viable option (especially as you don't have to contend with a 2500-3000 km distance that carriers have to venture through, so you don't have to upsize UAVs for that extra range).
 

Red___Sword

Junior Member
Quote kroko:
second time i lol at you.

Do you want to compare an AK-47 or toyota pickups, with a 8 axis off-road capable superheavy military truck ???? AFAIK only russia and now china manufacture those kinds of trucks. This is not something that you can get in second-hand or illegally manufactured in some third world country. And by the pictures, its clearly a chinese model.

Look, if you want to play down this path, we can do this: make a bodycount on people die on AK47, die on any means caused by rig Toyota pick-ups, and a bodycount on ACTUALLY HOW MANY PEOPLE DIE ON ANY MEANS THIS OFF-ROADER CAUSED.

plawolf presented the point better than me that, you can always find bogeyman at this side of fence, or laugh at those underhanded efforts at the other side of fence.
 

kroko

Senior Member
Quote kroko:


Look, if you want to play down this path, we can do this: make a bodycount on people die on AK47, die on any means caused by rig Toyota pick-ups, and a bodycount on ACTUALLY HOW MANY PEOPLE DIE ON ANY MEANS THIS OFF-ROADER CAUSED.

plawolf presented the point better than me that, you can always find bogeyman at this side of fence, or laugh at those underhanded efforts at the other side of fence.

WTH are you talking about ??? i understand what plawolf said but you arent making any sense. What does death caused by ak-47 or toyota pickups have to do with the task of getting this kind of truck ????
 

hmmwv

Junior Member
Especially in the North Korean case, where the drone can be under the protection of SK air force. I think in both NK and Iran scenarios the ABL can do wonders, but that's all history now.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
Given the outright accusation China directly assisted in North Korean nuclear weapons development... what the truck? Directly assisting North Korea make nukes wasn't enough to punish China but a truck is? Oh I get it! It was a lie all along.

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Chinese firm suspected in missile-linked sale to North Korea: U.S. official
By Matt Spetalnick | Reuters – 6 hrs ago...


WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States believes a Chinese firm sold North Korea components for a missile transporter showcased in a recent military parade and will press Beijing to tighten enforcement of a U.N. ban on such military sales, a U.S. official said on Saturday.

The Obama administration suspects the Chinese manufacturer sold the chassis - not the entire vehicle - and may have believed it was for civilian purposes, which means it would not be an intentional violation of U.N. sanctions, the senior official said.

But such a sale - coming to light amid tensions over a failed North Korean rocket launch earlier this month - raises concerns in Washington on whether China is making enough of an effort to abide by the prohibition on weapons sales to Pyongyang.

The New York Times first reported on U.S. findings about the origin of parts of the transporter launcher system - essentially a large truck on top of which a missile is mounted - displayed in a parade in Pyongyang on Sunday.

The newspaper said the administration suspected the Chinese manufacturer involved in the transaction was Hubei Sanjiang. The official, who confirmed details of the administration's thinking on the matter, said the firm likely sold the part to a front company that was used to mask the buyer's true identity.

Beijing, reclusive North Korea's only major ally, has denied it has broken any rules, although a modern, eight-axle missile transporter spotted in the military parade to celebrate the founder of North Korea was said by some western military experts to be of Chinese design and possibly origin.

Defense Secretary Leon Panetta told U.S. lawmakers on Thursday that China has provided some assistance to North Korea's missile program, but he said he did not know the "exact extent of that."

The White House plans to convey its concerns to China and use the incident to ratchet up pressure on Beijing to tighten enforcement of international sanctions on North Korea, the U.S. official said. It was unclear, however, exactly how such a complaint would be lodged.

Under United Nations Security Council resolutions from 2006 and 2009, states including China are banned from helping North Korea with its ballistic missile program, its nuclear activities as well as supplying heavy weapons.

TENSIONS AFTER ROCKET LAUNCH

Pyongyang has said it was ready to retaliate in the face of widespread condemnation of its failed rocket launch, increasing the likelihood the isolated state will go ahead with a third nuclear test.

After last week's launch, which the United States said was a disguised long-range missile test, the Obama administration responded by suspending a food aid deal with North Korea. Pyongyang insists the launch was meant to put a satellite into orbit.

Obama had pressed Chinese President Hu Jintao at a global nuclear security summit in Seoul last month to use its influence to get Pyongyang to cancel the launch. But administration officials had doubted Beijing, an increasingly assertive U.S. rival in the Asia-Pacific region, would act forcefully enough.

China has called for "dialogue and communication" as tensions with North Korea mount and reiterated its long-standing call for a return to regional denuclearization talks that have been stalled for years.

Panetta was asked during testimony before the House of Representatives Armed Services Committee whether China had been supporting North Korea's missile program through "trade and technology exchanges."

He declined to give details but said, "Clearly there's been assistance along those lines."

Panetta said there was "no question" North Korea's efforts to develop long-range missile and nuclear weapon capability were a threat to the United States. "For that reason we take North Korea and their provocative actions very seriously," he said.

"And China ought to be urging them to engage in those kinds of ... diplomatic negotiations. We thought we were making some progress and suddenly we're back at provocation," he added.

(Reporting By Matt Spetalnick; Editing by Vicki Allen)
 

escobar

Brigadier
Very old "pics" of the first DF-5 full range test.

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escobar

Brigadier
Great posts from mpleio on DongFeng series of ballistic missile

Chinese DongFeng series of ballistic missile: DongFeng-1
Nothing to say, it's the first ballistic missile made by Chinese ppl, related sources from USSR P-2 missile. DongFeng-1 ballistic missile successfully launched at 1960.11.05.But DongFeng-1 didn't have the chance to serve in PLA, after related test DongFeng-1 walked into museum. DongFeng-1 is the beginner of Chinese domestic ballistic missile industry, China trained missile designers through building DongFeng-1 ballistic missile in 1960s.

DongFeng-1 specifications:
Official name: DongFeng 1 (DF-1)
Service status: test missile, no deployment
Configuration: Single-stage, liquid propellant
Deployment: on towed trailer
Length: 17.68m
Body diameter: 1.65m
Launch weight: 20,400kg
Range: 600km
Re-entry vehicle mass: 1,300kg
Accuracy: unknown
Launch preparation time: unknown

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The DongFeng 2 (NATO code name: CSS-1) is a single-stage, liquid-propellant, road-mobile, medium-range ballistic missile (MRBM) developed by the Ministry of Defence 5th Academy (now China Academy of Launch Vehicle Technology, CALT). The DongFeng 2 is China’s first indigenously developed ballistic missile. The development of the DongFeng 2 began in the late 1950s. The DongFeng 2 development encountered some serious difficulties due to Soviet Union’s withdrawal of its technical assistance in 1960. The first test launch of the DongFeng 2 in March 1962 failed. The redesigned DongFeng 2A was successfully launched on 29 June 1964. On 27 December 1966, a DongFeng 2A missile carrying a 12kT atomic warhead was launched from Jiuquan and the missile hit the target in Lop Nor 800km away. The DongFeng 2A entered operational service with the PLA in the late 1960s, and was completely retired from active duty in the early 1980s.

DongFeng-2 specifications:
Official name: DongFeng 2 (DF-2)
NATO reporting name: CSS-1
Contractor: MND 5th Academy
Service status: Retired
Configuration: Single-stage, liquid propellant
Deployment: Road-mobile on towed trailer
Length: 20.61m
Body diameter: 1.65m
Wingspan: 2.13m
Launch weight: 31,900kg
Range: 1,250km
Re-entry vehicle mass: 1,500kg
Accuracy: CEP 4,000m
Launch preparation time: 120~180 min

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