China Ballistic Missiles and Nuclear Arms Thread

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Kalec

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Updating for missile cost estimation.

One SD-3 rocket cost is about $15 million, as I quoted "while the cost is just 10,000 U.S. dollars per kg."
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Its military version might be a little more expensive but should be generally in line with the cost.
Presumably, the cost would be $5,4 billion to fill up all 360 silos. Ngl much cheaper than I originally thought.

Btw it will approximately have a 4.5t throw weight in 12,000 km range, a.k.a. at least 6 * 650 kt warheads to the east coast.
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Kalec

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ofc it is based on the assumption that silos are for missiles with 2.64m diameter, it is difficult to measure the exact data from satellite images.

WHAT IF the DF-45 is based on SD-3A instead of SD-3. SD-3A should have maiden test around 2024 or 2025 and a 3.5m diameter.

FYI, FAS estimate the diameter of silo hatch to be 7m. So basically SD-3 should have closer connection with DF-45.
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FairAndUnbiased

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Updating for missile cost estimation.

One SD-3 rocket cost is about $15 million, as I quoted "while the cost is just 10,000 U.S. dollars per kg."
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Its military version might be a little more expensive but should be generally in line with the cost.
Presumably, the cost would be $5,4 billion to fill up all 360 silos. Ngl much cheaper than I originally thought.

Btw it will approximately have a 4.5t throw weight in 12,000 km range, a.k.a. at least 6 * 650 kt warheads to the east coast.
139780146_16147538048711n-jpg.88403
Wow. At that cost just have 3-5 geographically dispersed fields 2000+ km away from each other and with a few dedicated SAM batteries nearby to shoot down bombs/cruise missiles from stealthy first strikes, for maybe $15-18 billion total.

That's the cost of just 3 SSBNs, which for readiness purposes is 2 SSBNs actually on patrol.

The danger is all fields getting taken out simultaneously. The spacing of the silos indicates that thought has been given to prevent 1 warhead from taking out 2 silos. Each silo has to be targeted individually.

early warning radar + early warning satellites warn of mass ICBM attacks that could take out all fields simultaneously.

SAM batteries and geographic dispersion make it highly unlikely stealth bombers and cruise missiles can take out all the silos simultaneously as well by either being attacked first (thereby putting strategic forces on high alert) or shooting down dumb bombs and cruise missiles such that enough silo based missiles can launch.
 

AndrewS

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The main obstacle for a sea-based priority on nuclear deterrent, is geography and the massive fleet of US SSN.

PLA's SLBMs put high priority on range instead of yield, because JL-3 is presumably designed to launched from SCS. It is very likely JL-3 can only carry ONE warhead, and theoretically no more than 3 warheads with low yield. It translates to 12 warheads with 500 kt- 1mt or 36 warheads with 150kt. Meanwhile one peacekeeper alike silo-based missile alone can carry ten 300kt - 500kt warheads and much cheaper than SSBN.

Generally based on US data since we don't have data on Chinese procurement, 1 SSBN can buy at least 4 Peacekeeper silos. It cost US $20 billion in Peacekeeper program (100 silos), which equates to approximately $60 billion now. In comparison with UK SSBN program, 4 Vanguards cost £20 billion ($24 billion) in today value on procurement. Ofc peacekeeper can use existing Minuteman silos and China needs to build new ones to accommodate. In this case, I will double the cost to try to estimate how much it costs for silo deployment in China -- $120 billion. It doesn't reflect the true cost because China has far cheaper capability to build silos and doesn't take in account for PPP adjustment, but it is very obvious that silos is best investment China can do and provide excellent deterrence.

The operating costs for submarines are far greater than for silos.
 

Tempest

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Ok, I am not an expert on this, so this is just from my understanding. Aero braking is indeed an important part of deorbiting but you'll need more dV for accuracy and flight control. Using aero braking alone is inaccurate because there is large uncertainty in upper atmospheric density and due to high orbital speeds, even a small time error in choosing when to deorbit, translates to a large distance error.

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Ballistic missile trajectories are suborbital and will naturally intersect the atmosphere without any additional dV, so timing of reentry is known and the missile will roughly land around the target. Only the aerodynamic forces will affect accuracy rather than both the timing of reentry and aerodynamics.


If they can't take out all the silos simultaneously then they do indeed contribute to the number of weapons that can be fired in retaliation. As long as there's multiple silo fields separated sufficiently geographically and redundant communication connection between them it works
Quite a bit to dissect here.

But you'll need more dV for accuracy and flight control. Using aero braking alone is inaccurate because there is large uncertainty
No, this is simply, utterly, and abjectly untrue. Aerobraking, for all intents and purposes, is de-orbiting. Unless a celestial body simply doesn't have an atmosphere, the absolutely overwhelming majority of dV when de-orbiting is due to atmospheric effects. Hell, even LEO satellites are subject to aerodynamic drag that eventually brings them down. Getting into LEO calls for about 9 and a half kilometers per second of dV. De-orbiting from LEO? It takes between 60 and 90 meters per second.

Don't believe me? Take it from the Space Shuttle's own crew manual:
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This is because, all that is needed for a de-orbit burn is sufficient impulse to lower a vessel's Perigee such that it encounters enough aerodynamic drag to prevent the vessel from "rebounding" (if you know much about astrodynamics, you'll understand) out of the friction medium as it reaches its Apogee. From this point, the drag compounds and compounds, as (again, if you know much about astrodynamics concepts or really just basic kinematics you'll understand) the lower velocity results in a lower perigee, physically necessitating that the longitude of perigee is exactly 180 degrees (reference frame being the celestial body) offset from the vessel, which is why V is typically considered to be the 1st derivative of altitude in orbital mechanics. Let me put it in simpler terms as well, just in case you fancy a hand to hold: In orbits, velocity is *everything*. When a vessel in orbit reduces its velocity, not only will it simply "slow down," but it will also "fall down." This manifests as the semi-major-axis decreasing with the decrease in velocity - which - if the impulse is transient (a kinematically ideal/most efficient usage of dV), results in the apogee being at the very spot the burn was initiated, and the perigee being on the exact opposite side of the orbit, with the vessel's altitude decreasing all the way to the perigee.

Make sense? Cool. Now as a result of this, consider what happens when atmosphere gets thrown into the equation at perigee. That atmospheric drag is an impulse, just the same as an engine. As a result, while the vessel is decelerating, the perigee is staying exactly on the opposite side of the orbit, and thus the vessel is decreasing in altitude until it reaches it. However, as the vessel decreases in altitude, the aerodynamic drag increases, and the perigee falls faster and faster, and this this continues until the semi major axis is no longer greater than the radius of the celestial body, which is what we know as a ballistic trajectory with no "real" perigee (other than the ground, since the mathematical perigee is below the surface of the body).

Thus, even a tiny tiny double digit meter per second burn can de-orbit a spacecraft that required nearly 10,000m/s of deltaV to achieve that orbit. If you'd like further reading, I encourage you to take a look at this rather well explained Stack Exchange post:
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This link does not show what you think this link shows lol. Yes, it's absolutely true that an unplanned, unguided, non-functional satellite that is experiencing the terminal stages of orbital decay (as a result of that atmospheric drag I mentioned, which even satellites are affected by) is difficult to predict the exact impact point of. There are so so so many variables that go into it. Aspect of the vehicle (which way it's pointed basically, since different orientations produce different aerodynamic effects), exact velocity of the vehicle, rotation of the vehicle, structural failures during entry, aerodynamic induced oscillations or rotations, etc. all have a huge effect on the final impact point of these spacecraft, and seeing as how it's impossible to know all of those variables beforehand (because again, it is unguided, uncontrolled, and unplanned), we do have trouble predicting exact impact points.

However, this is not what a controlled re-entry looks like. Even non-aerodynamic entry profiles (mostly, at least, since Apollo was capable of offsetting its center of mass to produce a slight lifting body effect) such as during the moon missions were able to achieve an impressively high degree of accuracy - well within the margins needed to nuke something, and that was in the 60s!

Modern controlled re-entries with vehicles specifically designed for maneuver in these flight regimes and thermal load conditions are entirely capable of achieving sub 100 meter accuracy any day of the week.

Thus, again, while there are plenty of issues inherent to Orbital nukes, the kinematics and targeting really aren't one of them.
 

Tempest

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“sheer volume of munitions needed to generate an effective counterforce/countervalue salvo” also seems not true.
View attachment 88400
Notice task ALFA+BRAVO(aiming at only military targets) can destroy 70% economic targets.
I'm not sure what you think this is supposed to demonstrate.

SLBMs are very much engrained as second strike, or first strike weapons, in that they are the first warheads on foreheads. Not sure if you noticed, but your document states the smallest attack able to be ordered that is capable of achieving those aims is comprised of 2500/2600 weapons. I don't know how many SLBM warheads you think we had, but it was an awful lot less than 2500/2600. That is what I mean when I say that land based and air delivered munitions form the "bulk" of target prosecution, since they are the only forces (especially so for strategic aviation) capable of that depth of fires generation.

SLBMs would notionally have been employed on depressed trajectories (limiting reaction time) to disable key C3 nodes such as EWRs, extremely high priority facilities (Kremlin comes to mind), and other aspects of the Soviet "system" of nuclear fires so to "pave the way" for the rest of the force to employ their munitions against the rest of the target list in a first strike scenario. I'm surprised, I sorta thought this was standard knowledge for people studying nuclear employment schema haha
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Quite a bit to dissect here.


No, this is simply, utterly, and abjectly untrue. Aerobraking, for all intents and purposes, is de-orbiting. Unless a celestial body simply doesn't have an atmosphere, the absolutely overwhelming majority of dV when de-orbiting is due to atmospheric effects. Hell, even LEO satellites are subject to aerodynamic drag that eventually brings them down. Getting into LEO calls for about 9 and a half kilometers per second of dV. De-orbiting from LEO? It takes between 60 and 90 meters per second.

Don't believe me? Take it from the Space Shuttle's own crew manual:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

This is because, all that is needed for a de-orbit burn is sufficient impulse to lower a vessel's Perigee such that it encounters enough aerodynamic drag to prevent the vessel from "rebounding" (if you know much about astrodynamics, you'll understand) out of the friction medium as it reaches its Apogee. From this point, the drag compounds and compounds, as (again, if you know much about astrodynamics concepts or really just basic kinematics you'll understand) the lower velocity results in a lower perigee, physically necessitating that the longitude of perigee is exactly 180 degrees (reference frame being the celestial body) offset from the vessel, which is why V is typically considered to be the 1st derivative of altitude in orbital mechanics. Let me put it in simpler terms as well, just in case you fancy a hand to hold: In orbits, velocity is *everything*. When a vessel in orbit reduces its velocity, not only will it simply "slow down," but it will also "fall down." This manifests as the semi-major-axis decreasing with the decrease in velocity - which - if the impulse is transient (a kinematically ideal/most efficient usage of dV), results in the apogee being at the very spot the burn was initiated, and the perigee being on the exact opposite side of the orbit, with the vessel's altitude decreasing all the way to the perigee.

Make sense? Cool. Now as a result of this, consider what happens when atmosphere gets thrown into the equation at perigee. That atmospheric drag is an impulse, just the same as an engine. As a result, while the vessel is decelerating, the perigee is staying exactly on the opposite side of the orbit, and thus the vessel is decreasing in altitude until it reaches it. However, as the vessel decreases in altitude, the aerodynamic drag increases, and the perigee falls faster and faster, and this this continues until the semi major axis is no longer greater than the radius of the celestial body, which is what we know as a ballistic trajectory with no "real" perigee (other than the ground, since the mathematical perigee is below the surface of the body).

Thus, even a tiny tiny double digit meter per second burn can de-orbit a spacecraft that required nearly 10,000m/s of deltaV to achieve that orbit. If you'd like further reading, I encourage you to take a look at this rather well explained Stack Exchange post:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!



This link does not show what you think this link shows lol. Yes, it's absolutely true that an unplanned, unguided, non-functional satellite that is experiencing the terminal stages of orbital decay (as a result of that atmospheric drag I mentioned, which even satellites are affected by) is difficult to predict the exact impact point of. There are so so so many variables that go into it. Aspect of the vehicle (which way it's pointed basically, since different orientations produce different aerodynamic effects), exact velocity of the vehicle, rotation of the vehicle, structural failures during entry, aerodynamic induced oscillations or rotations, etc. all have a huge effect on the final impact point of these spacecraft, and seeing as how it's impossible to know all of those variables beforehand (because again, it is unguided, uncontrolled, and unplanned), we do have trouble predicting exact impact points.

However, this is not what a controlled re-entry looks like. Even non-aerodynamic entry profiles (mostly, at least, since Apollo was capable of offsetting its center of mass to produce a slight lifting body effect) such as during the moon missions were able to achieve an impressively high degree of accuracy - well within the margins needed to nuke something, and that was in the 60s!

Modern controlled re-entries with vehicles specifically designed for maneuver in these flight regimes and thermal load conditions are entirely capable of achieving sub 100 meter accuracy any day of the week.

Thus, again, while there are plenty of issues inherent to Orbital nukes, the kinematics and targeting really aren't one of them.
I get it now. Thanks for the explanation.
 

SEAD

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm not sure what you think this is supposed to demonstrate.

SLBMs are very much engrained as second strike, or first strike weapons, in that they are the first warheads on foreheads. Not sure if you noticed, but your document states the smallest attack able to be ordered that is capable of achieving those aims is comprised of 2500/2600 weapons. I don't know how many SLBM warheads you think we had, but it was an awful lot less than 2500/2600. That is what I mean when I say that land based and air delivered munitions form the "bulk" of target prosecution, since they are the only forces (especially so for strategic aviation) capable of that depth of fires generation.
This document is from Nixon time, of course they have another plan but it’s not unclassified. I quote to show that your assumption is not true.
SLBMs would notionally have been employed on depressed trajectories (limiting reaction time) to disable key C3 nodes such as EWRs, extremely high priority facilities (Kremlin comes to mind), and other aspects of the Soviet "system" of nuclear fires so to "pave the way" for the rest of the force to employ their munitions against the rest of the target list in a first strike scenario. I'm surprised, I sorta thought this was standard knowledge for people studying nuclear employment schema haha
Again, if you can find any US documents (SIOP, memorandum etc.) mentioning your theory I would appreciate. Please throw all those think tank garbage away.
On the other hand the targets list in your theory(e.g. ‘extremely high priority facilities’) is not a part of standard 1st strike. Only 2 of 15 strike plans in Nixon time aiming at those targets. (from Nixon’s NSDM)
 
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Kalec

Junior Member
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Wow. At that cost just have 3-5 geographically dispersed fields 2000+ km away from each other and with a few dedicated SAM batteries nearby to shoot down bombs/cruise missiles from stealthy first strikes, for maybe $15-18 billion total.

That's the cost of just 3 SSBNs, which for readiness purposes is 2 SSBNs actually on patrol.
I think $18 billion is a reasonable calculation based on preliminary estimation, but MX Peacekeeper program alone took US around $20 billion in then dollar value to procure 100 missiles without silos building.

I have to say "the deal is too good to be true."
 
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