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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
What I was asking was whether there were any new developments.

This gets brought up every few years but when it comes to signing on the dotted line the Argies don't for whatever reason.
Yes I know. This was a new development and the visit of the Chinese delegation took place in May(?).

But yes, it remains to be seen if Argentine will finally pull the trigger. However this visit might imply that at least they are doing something. IMO they should be negotiating now. Argentine opened its mouth and requested a lot of things for the pitiful amount of aircraft they want to buy.

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Miragedriver

Brigadier
He is right. This was also discussed on this forum.

There was also a Chinese delegation who visited Argentine and toured its production facilities in order to see in whay extend they could localise some JF-17 items

AFAIR Argentine wants a mix of JF-17 Block 2 and Block 3 plus Chinese financing by soft loans.

IMO China will agree to these terms as it wants to enter the Latin America arms market and Argentine would be a good showcase for its aerospace products
The post is a regurgitation from two articles. Now whether those articles are complete BS is another matter. There have been studies after studies and attempted purchases and half-ass searches for new aircraft for the past 10 plus years all ending in nothing.

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Fact one: The post says that the Argentine government is forming a joint workgroup to assess the integration of the aircraft into the Air Force. Not the acquisition. This is to assess the logistics and support system needed for possible integration.

Fact two: Argentina has explored in the past (2015) the possibility of coproduction (assembly), but it never came to anything, as always.

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At any rate, I don’t see the purchase of aircraft materializing on several factors:

  • Argentina’s recent budget deficits and tenuous relations with international creditors may limit its ability to afford these purchases. (mentioned in the article) This is the most likely reason why this will not process past workgroup engaging in mental masturbation.
  • I doubt that FMA will be able to negotiate a coproduction (assembly) agreement that was already attempted with talks back in 2015 with no results. This takes us back to this first point....no money.
  • There are still many in the military that are not convinced of the ability of the aircraft or the viability of Chinese manufactured armaments (this is conjecture on my part).
  • Britain will block the sale or assembly of the aircraft due to British components in the aircraft. Most notable one being the Martin Bake ejection system.
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
Yes I know. This was a new development and the visit of the Chinese delegation took place in May(?).

But yes, it remains to be seen if Argentine will finally pull the trigger. However this visit might imply that at least they are doing something. IMO they should be negotiating now. Argentine opened its mouth and requested a lot of things for the pitiful amount of aircraft they want to buy.

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I have low expectations that anything will result from negotiations, workgroup, or official State visits.

The fact is that the Argentine government prefers to spend its money on domestic feel-good issues than on national defense. This is mostly because the current regime were on the receiving end of the Military Juntas response during the “dirty war”. They, therefore, have a distain for anything military. The unfortunate fact is that they (the current government) has permitted the military to deteriorate to a point where it will take decades to rebuild. Argentine does not sit well with international creditors or the IMF
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
After the British veto to the FA-50 sale, only 2 candidates remain. JF-17 vs MiG-35. Is the moment of definition approaching?

After the decommissioning of the Mirage weapons system in 2015, the Argentine Air Force (FAA) lost its supersonic capacity. And with the decommissioning of the A-4ARs expected for 2023 (there are only 5 flying out of the original 30 delivered), Argentina is desperately looking for a new modern weapons system that will allow it to recover its air defense capabilities, which is on the way to extinction.

At this rate, the only way the Air Force will have any combat aircraft is if some nation donates its decommissioned aircraft.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I don’t think either is likely due to fact that the current government does not want to spend the money. Also, the JF-17 has some British components that would require some modification to the existing aircraft that Argentina will not be able to pay for.

Any thoughts?
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
JF-17 vs MiG-35. Is the moment of definition approaching?
I think so. Argentine is in dire need of a modern aircraft. The way things are going they are constantly losing institutional knowledge if they are not flying modern fighter jets.
Also with the decommissioning of their frontline aircraft they urgently need a replacement. They cannot ignore it anymore (unless politicians step in ofc)


And with the decommissioning of the A-4ARs expected for 2023 (there are only 5 flying out of the original 30 delivered), Argentina is desperately looking for a new modern weapons system that will allow it to recover its air defense capabilities, which is on the way to extinction.
Agree


At this rate, the only way the Air Force will have any combat aircraft is if some nation donates its decommissioned aircraft.
Yep. Or who knows, maybe they can try to play some real diplomacy and make Uncle Sam donate some aircraft in order to block the Russians or their rival, the Chinese for making inroads in the region. If they are skillful in realpolitik, I doubt the US will let them fall in China's hand so easily


As I mentioned in earlier posts, I don’t think either is likely due to fact that the current government does not want to spend the money
We are in the dark now. Thats internal politics of Argentine. If Argentine's Air Force cant lobby hard enough to get a replacement then they are truly hopeless.
Yes funding is tight, but I doubt that Argentine wont proceed with buying new aircrafts. The stakes are too high

In fact I would say this decision would be the litmus test for Argentine's Security establishment. If they cant even push for something like this then I would write off their Air Force aspirations and even their greater strategic aspirations.
Ultimately I think that China will make them an attractive offer by using loans with good terms and accounting for Argentine's fiscal situation.

Also, the JF-17 has some British components that would require some modification to the existing aircraft that Argentina will not be able to pay for.
Are you talking about the ejection seat? If yes, then I dont see how China cannot use their own domestic ejection seat. I dont think that thisnkind of change would be significant enough that it could jeopardize a potential sale. Now regarding other components, I dont know about them. I only know that the ejection system could be sanctioned. However you could be right on that, some small foreign components could exist

To conclude, I think the stakes are too high for Argentine to not procure new aircrafts. Couple that with China's desire to enter the Latin America arms market and I could easily envision the Chinese making a very good offer for Argentine. There might be also local production for some items.
Again, this is only based of China's interests that it could make such a sweet offer to Argentine.

We will see. Lets wait for more news, because for now we can only speculate
 

siegecrossbow

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
After the British veto to the FA-50 sale, only 2 candidates remain. JF-17 vs MiG-35. Is the moment of definition approaching?

After the decommissioning of the Mirage weapons system in 2015, the Argentine Air Force (FAA) lost its supersonic capacity. And with the decommissioning of the A-4ARs expected for 2023 (there are only 5 flying out of the original 30 delivered), Argentina is desperately looking for a new modern weapons system that will allow it to recover its air defense capabilities, which is on the way to extinction.

At this rate, the only way the Air Force will have any combat aircraft is if some nation donates its decommissioned aircraft.

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I don’t think either is likely due to fact that the current government does not want to spend the money. Also, the JF-17 has some British components that would require some modification to the existing aircraft that Argentina will not be able to pay for.

Any thoughts?

Only the Martin-Baker ejection seat on the JF-17 is of British origin. The Chinese ejection seat used on the FC-1 is also used on the J-10 and has saved many pilots prior to crashes.
 

Miragedriver

Brigadier
We are in the dark now. Thats internal politics of Argentine. If Argentine's Air Force cant lobby hard enough to get a replacement then they are truly hopeless.
Yes funding is tight, but I doubt that Argentine wont proceed with buying new aircrafts. The stakes are too high

In fact I would say this decision would be the litmus test for Argentine's Security establishment. If they cant even push for something like this then I would write off their Air Force aspirations and even their greater strategic aspirations.
Ultimately I think that China will make them an attractive offer by using loans with good terms and accounting for Argentine's fiscal situation.
The current regime in power are the same individuals that were persecuted by the military during the "Dirty War" in the mid/late 1970. The Air Force has been lobbying for aircraft but the politician prefers to spend it on social programs or broadcasting soccer games to the masses for votes.
Some the nation will lose all its experienced pilots and maintenance staff to the private sector or other nations. My opinion is that Argentina will begin to lose parts of its territory to Chile in the next decade. It will be the wake up call that comes too late.
 

Paulo R Siqueira

New Member
Registered Member

PHOTO: Gripen F-39E FAB 4101 fighter jet leaving assembly line​


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Per
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September 20, 2021

F-39-Gripen-4101.jpeg


In the photo released by Saab, the series Gripen F-39E FAB 4101 fighter leaving the assembly line. Note that the aircraft is equipped with the Skyward-G IRST (infrared search and tracking) sensor in the nose.

Two Gripen E aircraft are ready and another two units are in the final stages of production in Linköping, Sweden.

The first two aircraft will be transported by ship to Brazil in late November 2021. The other two will come in the first half of 2022.

According to the Aeronautics Social Communication Center (Cecomsaer), after landing in the country, the aircraft will proceed to the Gripen Flight Test Center, in Gavião Peixoto, where FAB, Embraer and Saab test pilots will perform flight tests until the military certificate is ready.

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Maikeru

Senior Member
Registered Member
GPF article. I find it amusing that US fears that China is after Argentina's incredibly advanced, world-leading nuclear technology. More importantly I think we're going to see more and more countries balancing between USA and China in order to leverage benefits from both.

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The competition with China is forcing Washington to be more proactive in the region.​

By: Allison Fedirka​


The U.S. and Argentina have had a complicated and often sour relationship over the past 50 years. The U.S. backed violent political repression in Argentina as part of Operation Condor and surprised Buenos Aires by backing the British in the Falklands War. It also imposed the Washington consensus on Argentina, an economic order the U.S. advocated to bring the region in line with U.S. practices. This ultimately backfired in a massive 2001 economic crisis in which Argentina was largely left to fend for itself. Since then, a series of populist governments that oppose the U.S. have ruled the country. Put simply, Washington is hardly considered a stalwart Argentine ally.
It's against this backdrop that Chinese overtures in Argentina should be viewed. Beijing is positioning itself as an alternative source of trade, financing and investment. And though this kind of diplomatic behavior isn’t anything new, even in Latin America, Washington is starting to become more proactive, trying now to be the friend to Argentina it’s failed to be in the past.
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But it’s important to note that the U.S. doesn’t have to be as overtly antagonistic to Argentina as it is to clearly anti-U.S. governments like Cuba and Venezuela. Argentina is simply too far away to be the geostrategic concern the others are. Still, Argentina’s size and its plentiful natural resources make it an attractive entry point for China as it tries to supplant U.S. influence in the Western Hemisphere. Washington can’t afford to ignore Argentina if it wants to have a safe and secure backyard – a prerequisite for projecting power globally.
This is why Washington has abandoned the stick for the carrot, hoping to regain influence by engaging Buenos Aires on matters of mutual interest. A series of high-level meetings between U.S. and Argentine officials over the past week makes as much clear. On April 22, the Argentine president’s secretary of strategic affairs met with the U.S. national security adviser and the senior director for the Western Hemisphere at the National Security Council to discuss financial relations, food security, energy resilience, information technology, satellite technology, communications and clean energy. The secretary also met with officials from the U.S. Treasury, the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank. Then on April 26, the head of U.S. Southern Command met separately with Argentina's vice president and defense minister to discuss military training and equipment for the armed forces. All of the topics of conversation revolve around areas in which China has helped Argentina meet its strategic needs – nuclear technology, lithium procurement, space and defense. (That the U.S. is tackling these topics head-on suggests Washington has a new strategy in place to help secure U.S. interests in Argentina.)
Nuclear technology in particular figures prominently in Argentina’s priorities for energy and climate change. It not only provides large-scale generation with a long lifespan but also reduces dependence on fossil fuels. At the end of March, the Argentine government awarded China a contract for the construction of the Atucha III nuclear reactor. Beijing will also provide 85 percent of the financing for the project, valued at $8.3 billion. Shortly after the announcement, in early April, the U.S. sent a delegation to Buenos Aires led by the deputy assistant secretary for nonproliferation policy to discuss Washington’s concerns over China’s participation in the project. The delegation spoke directly with the ministers of productive development, science and technology and defense, as well as with the head of the Argentine Cabinet, the vice chancellor and, again, the president’s secretary of strategic affairs. Specifically, the U.S. expressed serious concerns over the control and safety of certain kinds of Chinese tech and raised the possibility of China stealing some of Argentina’s technology.
Lithium production and processing are similarly important. Lithium is arguably the element with the most strategic future applications in civilian and military sectors, and its use in battery tech comports with many of Argentina’s objectives in clean energy. Chinese industry plays a large role in the extraction and refinement of lithium in Argentina, which currently accounts for 16 percent of global output and 9 percent of proven global reserves. Several prominent Chinese companies, including Hanaq, Jinchuan, Zijin and Ganfeng, own the rights to lithium exploration and extraction contracts in Argentina. Zijin Mining Group also has a lithium carbonate interest, while Ganfeng Lithium is set to open a lithium-ion battery factory later this year. The U.S. government included lithium and rare earth materials in the Defense Production Act, thereby declaring lithium a national interest for the U.S. to secure, be it through domestic production or partner countries.
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Maikeru

Senior Member
Registered Member
Part 2:

Regarding satellite technology cooperation, the U.S. interest primarily stems from security concerns, whereas Argentina wants to develop its own space program further. For a country like Argentina, space has become too crowded to ignore in its national defense. China, through its construction and operation of the Espacio Lejano Station, already has a substantial presence in Argentina. This radio station helps track Chinese satellites, conducts deep space mapping and supports China’s lunar projects. China’s Satellite Launch and Tracking Control General has operated the facility since it opened in 2018. It also answers to the Chinese People’s Liberation Army.
Earlier this month, Argentina’s science and technology minister said the government intended to advance new space projects with China. This is particularly concerning for the U.S., which worries about China’s ability to capture communications from non-Chinese satellites as well as other military uses the station could serve. But there’s an opportunity for the U.S. to step in: Beijing permits Buenos Aires only limited access to the Espacio Lejano Station, so Washington could offer a more equitable partnership in the field of satellite development.
The U.S. Southern Command commander’s visit also likely addressed Argentina’s warming military ties with China. The U.S. traditionally dominates the Western Hemisphere, but over the years China has increased its defense support for Latin American countries. Now, Argentina is interested in updating its fighter fleet, and it’s eying China’s JF-17, which would be one of Beijing’s most advanced weapons sales to Latin America and would lay the groundwork for more major sales and integration in the future. A major reason Argentina is looking to China is that a U.K. arms embargo, a relic of the 1982 Falklands War, prevents the sale to Argentina of most Western alternatives because they contain British technology in their ejection seats and air-to-air refueling systems. For Washington to help, it would need to negotiate a waiver or offer other military equipment of value to the Argentine armed forces that do not conflict with the U.K. embargo.
Finally, one area where the U.S. can significantly improve ties and outmatch China is through international financing. Argentina has been trying for years to regain good standing in world markets, but its poor relationship with the International Monetary Fund has stood in the way. Most recently, the government and the IMF have been renegotiating the terms of a $44 billion loan, which largely hinged on U.S. approval. To plug the financing gap and prop up its reserves, Argentina in the meantime turned to China. In February, Beijing increased its currency swap with Argentina by $3 billion, on top of the $18.5 billion agreed in 2021.
However, that the U.S. and Argentina discussed the normalization of financial relations suggests Washington is becoming more accommodating. Buenos Aires’ main issue with the IMF is the political conditions that come with its help. This means every IMF agreement requires diplomatic engagement and sign-off, mostly from Washington, since the U.S. is the largest contributor and has the largest vote share. Over the weekend, after a series of meetings with IMF officials, Argentina’s economy minister said the country would comply with the terms of the first review of the loan and thank the U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan for his efforts in reaching the deal. The imprints of a lighter U.S. touch were also visible in IMF statements, which noted that inflation may force some adjustments to targets. Equally important was the Argentine secretary of strategic affairs and Sullivan’s shared view that the World Bank and the Inter-American Development Bank should play a leadership role in channeling funds to combat climate change. The U.S. has more power over these institutions and could offer more flexibility on loan conditionality, and climate change – in addition to being an important subject for Argentina – is a broad enough category that it would provide many lending opportunities. If Washington can unlock more financing for Buenos Aires, and follow through on strategic projects, it will help level the playing field against Beijing.

 

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