That's like saying someone is not a war criminal if he stay in an country he haven't committed war crimes in.
Brother of Ling Jihua Reveals China's nuclear launch code and top secrets to US
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That's like saying someone is not a war criminal if he stay in an country he haven't committed war crimes in.
kwaigonegin
Colonel
Well as a non PRC citizen it does not bother me however I can totally understand a PRC citizen feeling the same way I would feel if say a US citizen betrays the US and is traitorous. That is logical.
What I don't understand is naturalized Americans who came from China or as you said overseas naturalized Chinese.... how do they feel about it?
solarz
Brigadier
Because historically, overseas Chinese have suffered persecution and discrimination because China was weak, therefore, most overseas Chinese have a vested interest in seeing China prosper and grow strong.
kwaigonegin
Colonel
No not even close. Every country has spies and also people who
I have to disagree on that. I think Chinese or whatever race of folks suffered persecution and discrimination because the 'natives' are/were discriminatory and prejudiced. It has very little to do with how strong or weak the country of origin of the immigrants is.
If that were true immigrant Chinese all,over the world would face almost zero discrimination today since China is #2 in strength in most categories.
Anyway let's move on. This has gotten way off from even my original intentions.
This is a interesting subject, so here is what I know.
Your saying "from the standpoint of the US he ISN'T a traitor" may be shared by many Americans, I am not sure about that. But China and Chinese including American Chinese has and are brought up in Chinese culture. There is a culture difference, very significant one probably. A good example is not long ago.
At the turn of Ming and Qing dynasty (middle of 17th century), there was a high rank Ming official/general Hong Chengchou. He was the defense minister, military governor of Ming who was initially successful in defending Ming against the Manchu (before establishing Qing dynasty) attack, but eventually defeated and captured by Qing. He intended to commit suicide in prison by refusing food, but surrendered after the Qing's high regard and gratitude. Later he served Qing as defense minister, governor and adviser to the Qing emperors. But 110 years after his death when the Qing was composing book of "traitors of the late Ming" 明季贰臣传, he was put in it. The book says "for the principle of loyalty, he must be put in as a traitor (he is a traitor of his sovereign (Ming) regardless of his contribution to Qing)".
My example is to make an analog, Qing (US) was benefited by Hong (Ling)'s service, Hong (Ling) betrayed Ming (PRC) but Qing still see Hong as a traitor, a disgraced person (to be spitted on for this matter), while you (and US, or other Americans) do not care.
You see the difference? While Chinese Americans are American citizen first, but they have deep culture root in China, they are brought up with this idea by their parents. It is only natural for them to act/think in the way that solarz said. And act/think in that way does not make them less American, just like Qing act in that way did not stop Qing to quash the Ming remnant.
While I can not be sure about western culture as a whole on this kind of matter, but I know this matter is the most important about a person in Chinese culture. I am not implying which is right or better just as you are not arguing about it, but I find it quite interesting difference in the way of people's thinking and moral value, and I'd like to share my thought with you and others, this may help us to really understand each other in discussion in this forum.
kwaigonegin
Colonel
Noted and thank you for your detailed explanation. Yes that can certainly be the case here. It could be a cultural thing vs a nationalistic/political thing as far as 'feelings' are concern.
Guys, in the end every person must make their own choices and then live with the consequences.
As to morality, right or wrong, etc., etc. individual people will have to decide what they think.
The founding fathers of the United States were viewed as traitors to the King of England. They were under a death threat...to be hanged...if caught.
But instead, they ultimately prevailed and the new country to this day views them as heroes.
Had they lost and been caught, they would have been hung and later citizens of England's colonies in the Americas would have viewed them as such.
So lets not get too carried away with this. American citizens of Chinese descent will have to decide for themselves.
People in China will have to decide for themselves.
Same everywhere.
Expressing how they feel on this will be viewed and reacted to differently depending on where they are.
This is one reason we try and avoid politics here on SD.
As to morality, right or wrong, etc., etc. individual people will have to decide what they think.
The founding fathers of the United States were viewed as traitors to the King of England. They were under a death threat...to be hanged...if caught.
But instead, they ultimately prevailed and the new country to this day views them as heroes.
Had they lost and been caught, they would have been hung and later citizens of England's colonies in the Americas would have viewed them as such.
So lets not get too carried away with this. American citizens of Chinese descent will have to decide for themselves.
People in China will have to decide for themselves.
Same everywhere.
Expressing how they feel on this will be viewed and reacted to differently depending on where they are.
This is one reason we try and avoid politics here on SD.
manqiangrexue
Brigadier
1. In a Chinese Supermarket filled with Chinese people, are all/ most of them US citizens? I'd say 30-50% are.
2. Ling is a traitor, not a spy. He never intended to get Chinese information to the US; he intended to keep himself safe with the information. He's a traitor, who failed. From the US standpoint, he's still a traitor, but one that benefits the US. Traitors betray thier own country, and that's what he did. Traitors are looked down upon everywhere. No Americans would respect him, no matter how much he contributes to America, but they wouldn't attack him either because very few people are inclined to attack a pitiful cowering animal that begs you to protect it.
3. As far as how American citizens of Chinese descent feel, well, that varies from person to person. To me, an orange is an orange. Even if it's labelled an apple, it's still an orange. And if it insists that it's an apple even though the skin peels off by hand and citrusy orange segments come out, it's just a confused, funny orange. If America and China go to war, the first people who go to internment camps would be them LOL
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Blackstone
Brigadier
Based on what data?
Agreed. Ling is probably a traitor, just as Snowden is probably a traitor. I say probably in the legal sense, since they're innocent until proven guilty in the court of law. However, in the court of public opinion, both are traitors.
What a load of crap. If you're a US citizen, you're an American, regardless of your race or origin. Full stop. US already learned its shameful lessons from locking up Americans of Japanese ancestry in WW2, and it's extremely unlikely to repeat the mistake.
It may be to China's own advantage to study and then innovate for itself how America created the "melting pot" concept, grafted it into its DNA, because it's easier to keep the civilization-state unified if the Hans embrace the Tibetans, Uyghurs, Mongolians, and 52 other minorities China currently recognize as "Chinese."
Multiculturalism is a new trend that has an unproven longevity. If the US continues to exist for millennia with a diverse racial composition, then I guess the multiculturalism experiment has been vindicated. Until then, I'll take my chances with homogeneity. As for the 52 minority groups, most of them are virtually indistinguishable from the Han and the remaining outliers constitute ~2% of China's population. For all intents and purposes, China is homogeneous. And it's better to stay that way until proven otherwise.