Badgering people for classified information

coolgod · Sep 3, 2022

dasCKD said:
I did think that this rule seemed heavy-handed in the past, but I think that something similar to this might be warranted on this forum. Badgering people over this, as has been noted above, can cause people to go to jail in the US. Hosting that kind of information is also very illegal and can probably cause this forum to get nuked by the feds. If we implement a policy where mods immediately delete all demands for classified information and a general ban on information that breeches any country's OPSEC, COMSEC, INFOSEC, and PERSEC, we might be able to avoid this issue in the future.

dasCKD said:
Nice of you to assume my position right there. No, posting Chinese military secrets is not okay. I'll say this in case someone reading this is a part of the PLA or an engineer for one of the Chinese companies: f*cking don't. Your government has worked extremely hard to keep that information under wraps and there is no internet argument in existence that is worth winning that is worth leaking PLA military secrets to the US DoD.

Archive this site, then host it on a Chinese server, start the stopwatch to see how long before you get a call or a knock on your door. Why the double standards when applied to sensitive military info on other countries (i.e., US). Is this just because this forum is hosted on a US server with a US domain name?

solarz said:
I was under the impression that any info posted here is in the public domain. Is that not the case?

For example, there are lots of photos here that were downloaded from weibo and reposted here, while the original photos were quickly censored. Are those photos not sufficiently sensitive to Chinese gov?
I'm not stating that this forum should ban sensitive info on each countries military, I'm just saying that it would be nice to have a forum with a neutral security policy regarding the sensitive military information of each country.

Mirabo · Sep 3, 2022

I'm surprised and disappointed that this debate is still ongoing even after the user in question has realized what was best for his career and country and has made a decision accordingly. That said, I don't see the controversy.

In plain English, this saga involved an anonymous person on the internet claiming to have certain credentials, who sometimes wrote informative content, and backed it up with a whole load of fuck-all. Demanding that the individual provide evidence, classified or not, is the most obvious and natural response.

Especially so when the object of debate is a highly-sensitive piece of Chinese military hardware.

Honestly, anyone who says they have an sophisticated understanding or knowledge on such a platform without proven access to classified Chinese sources should have their opinion (on that particular topic) discarded, no matter how helpful they might be in other subject areas.

And if the user was as sophisticated as some of you lot claim, he should never have brought it up in the first place. It is reasonable to believe that only the Chinese MIC, and nobody else, has detailed information on the J-20's specifications. Anyone else who claims to is either a liar, or has a 500K bounty on their heads and would not be on this forum.

It's that simple.

Blitzo · Sep 3, 2022

coolgod said:
I'm not objecting to the fact that not all opinions are equal, I'm just pointing out Blitzo's value judgement that Patchwork has been single-handedly one of the most high-yield content posting new members that this forum has seen in the last five years which clearly demonstrates his bias and denigrates older SDF members.

Yes, I hold high esteem towards members who I believe provide valuable input and contributions on military and PLA related matters, on a forum that is primarily a PLA watching forum.

coolgod said:
I haven't been here for 5 years, but I'm certain there are new members who have posted defence-related content just as "valuable" as what Patchwork posted, they just aren't aligned with Blitzo's field of interest. For example, what makes Patchwork's posts more "valuable" than the posts by SDF members within China's Space industry? Semiconductor industry?

Obviously everyone is biased, but it would be wise to pick an impartial mod to rule on each specific case on this forum.

The space industry and semiconductor industry are defense adjacent, and I hold great appreciation and value in certain members who post in those threads and provide their own high yield inputs.
Those topics, and other topics are welcome here in the relevant subforums and thread categories, and I've never suggested that they are not allowed to continue. In fact, those topics help to add some flair and variety to the discussions of the forum.

However this forum is primarily oriented around one of China defense watching -- it is called Sino Defence Forum.
PLA watching and China defense matters are not "my field of interest" -- it is literally the raison d'etre for this entire forum, and the primary focus of this community.
If there was a "Sino Space Forum" or "Sino Semi Forum" then obviously the primary focus of those forums would be different, and China defense watching (and thus the value of members who contribute to those matters) would be significantly less.

Thus, I will not apologize for valuing members who advance the primary focus of this community and forum. Patchwork was one of these members, in his brief time here. There are of course multiple other current members (who I won't name) who I believe also provide significant valuable contributions on the primary focus as well.

If anything, I am confused and alarmed that you would think that China defense watching would be considered merely a "field of interest" or even a "bias" in context of this forum, and I wonder what you believe would constitute a moderator with values you agree with on a place called Sino Defence Forum.

5unrise · Sep 3, 2022

There is nothing wrong with what I have seen from the back-and-forth debate in the J-20 thread, from either side. Patchwork is obviously not obliged to provide any information, confidential or not, to back up his assertions in any legal, moral or even dialectical sense. Other members are right to question his claim because of it, as a lack of evidence would mean that the argument is made from authority, and as far as finding the truth goes nobody has to submit to that line of argument. It is absolutely fine to cite his refusal to provide information as a counter against his claim.

The fact that he has chosen to leave is not something anyone can control, and it would be a stretch to think that anyone could have foreseen this to be an expected outcome of asking him for information. Nobody insulted or personally attacked him - they just weren't buying what he had to say. Personally, it seemed to me that he left because he is annoyed by the pushback he got, which is something many other people would just swallow their pride and get over. There is nothing we can do about that

ACuriousPLAFan · Sep 3, 2022

5unrise said:
There is nothing wrong with what I have seen from the back-and-forth debate in the J-20 thread, from either side. Patchwork is obviously not obliged to provide any information, confidential or not, to back up his assertions in any legal, moral or even dialectical sense. Other members are right to question his claim because of it, as a lack of evidence would mean that the argument is made from authority, and as far as finding the truth goes nobody has to submit to that line of argument. It is absolutely fine to cite his refusal to provide information as a counter against his claim.

The fact that he has chosen to leave is not something anyone can control, and it would be a stretch to think that anyone could have foreseen this to be an expected outcome of asking him for information. Nobody insulted or personally attacked him - they just weren't buying what he had to say. Personally, it seemed to me that he left because he is annoyed by the pushback he got, which is something many other people would just swallow their pride and get over. There is nothing we can do about that

I have been inactive in this forum for the past few days (except reacting to posts), and this happened?

Damn.

What a real shame to be honest, he is (now was) one of the best informants we got in this forum regarding updated assessments of the Pentagon and military intelligence circle in DC on the PLA.

Abominable · Sep 4, 2022

ACuriousPLAFan said:
I have been inactive in this forum for the past few days (except reacting to posts), and this happened?

Damn.

What a real shame to be honest, he is (now was) one of the best informants we got in this forum regarding updated assessments of the Pentagon and military intelligence circle in DC on the PLA.

Patchwork turned up in the J-20 thread unprompted and claimed the F-35 was better. He then claimed he was right he because he worked in intelligence and trust me bro. When appropriately called out for that he threw his toys out the pram and effectively accused us of being PLA spies. He asked for his account to be banned and now can be found on reddit, where everyone is known to be polite and can never be accessed by foreign intelligence....lol

Some people on here (including moderators) became very upset with the situation and unfairly blamed @manqiangrexue. Apparently he should have just agreed with what he said and not pushed back on anything.

Again, I thought his posts during the Taiwan crisis were decent, but if he's going to be this disruptive, it's probably better he didn't post here. He certainly hasn't changed the opinion I have that American Intelligence isn't very.....intelligent.

56860 · Sep 4, 2022

Abominable said:
Patchwork turned up in the J-20 thread unprompted and claimed the F-35 was better. He then claimed he was right he because he worked in intelligence and trust me bro. When appropriately called out for that he threw his toys out the pram and effectively accused us of being PLA spies. He asked for his account to be banned and now can be found on reddit, where everyone is known to be polite and can never be accessed by foreign intelligence....lol

Some people on here (including moderators) became very upset with the situation and unfairly blamed @manqiangrexue. Apparently he should have just agreed with what he said and not pushed back on anything.

Again, I thought his posts during the Taiwan crisis were decent, but if he's going to be this disruptive, it's probably better he didn't post here. He certainly hasn't changed the opinion I have that American Intelligence isn't very.....intelligent.

He said the F-22 was superior to the J-20, and more specifically in A2A.

bjj_starter · Sep 4, 2022

Abominable said:
Patchwork turned up in the J-20 thread unprompted and claimed the F-35 was better.

You're completely wrong. It wasn't the F-35, it was the F-22 Raptor, and he didn't claim it was "better" - he very specifically noted that the J-20 was most likely an operationally superior platform. What did say was that on a tactical level, in only an A2A battle, the F-22 would hold an edge. This was in response to someone claiming the F-22 had poor performance because of its age and no longer being in production, as though it hasn't been upgraded in the last 20 years.

Abominable said:
He then claimed he was right he because he worked in intelligence and trust me bro

He's an operations analyst and correctly noted he was able to give us insight we wouldn't otherwise have. None of the people he was correcting (no insult intended to them) have ever demonstrated that sort of specialised knowledge. Expert opinions are valued and it's completely reasonable for an expert in a subject to plainly disagree with someone when they have information the other doesn't. It is fine to disagree with his expert opinion - that was never the issue. Trying to bait him into committing crimes that could land him in prison was the issue.

Abominable said:
When appropriately called out for that he threw his toys out the pram and effectively accused us of being PLA spies

This is beyond disingenuous. When you hold a top secret security clearance in the US, you are legally not permitted to be a part of any social group (including a relatively cohesive internet forum) that attempts to solicit classified information from you. It's part of his job that he had to leave because some people in the thread refused to take no for an answer and tried to bait him into posting classified information explicitly. It's always been fine to ask someone a question, but there were multiple instances of people in that thread specifically asking him to share classified information - the fact that that happened, combined with this forum being functionally a social group and not a public social media platform, meant he had to leave.

Abominable · Sep 4, 2022

bjj_starter said:
You're completely wrong. It wasn't the F-35, it was the F-22 Raptor, and he didn't claim it was "better" - he very specifically noted that the J-20 was most likely an operationally superior platform. What did say was that on a tactical level, in only an A2A battle, the F-22 would hold an edge. This was in response to someone claiming the F-22 had poor performance because of its age and no longer being in production, as though it hasn't been upgraded in the last 20 years.

He's an operations analyst and correctly noted he was able to give us insight we wouldn't otherwise have. None of the people he was correcting (no insult intended to them) have ever demonstrated that sort of specialised knowledge. Expert opinions are valued and it's completely reasonable for an expert in a subject to plainly disagree with someone when they have information the other doesn't. It is fine to disagree with his expert opinion - that was never the issue. Trying to bait him into committing crimes that could land him in prison was the issue.

This is beyond disingenuous. When you hold a top secret security clearance in the US, you are legally not permitted to be a part of any social group (including a relatively cohesive internet forum) that attempts to solicit classified information from you. It's part of his job that he had to leave because some people in the thread refused to take no for an answer and tried to bait him into posting classified information explicitly. It's always been fine to ask someone a question, but there were multiple instances of people in that thread specifically asking him to share classified information - the fact that that happened, combined with this forum being functionally a social group and not a public social media platform, meant he had to leave.

He wasn't badgered once, only to substantiate his claims other than saying the F-22 is better (or worse, whatever). As I've already said if he's posting here with conclusions drawn solely from classified information it sounds like he's already in trouble.

This may come as news to you, but America isn't the only country with secrets. I've seen pictures of J-20s on here with markings clearly stating not for public distribution. Should they be taken down?

Jj888 · Sep 4, 2022

Abominable said:
Again, I thought his posts during the Taiwan crisis were decent, but if he's going to be this disruptive, it's probably better he didn't post here. He certainly hasn't changed the opinion I have that American Intelligence isn't very.....intelligent.

after watching the withdrawal of usa from Afghanistan which was wonderfully carried out, my respect for the intelligence team increased tremendously.

according to my undisclosed sources, this team had been duly promoted. They are assigned to work on the Taiwan planning

now that patch is not around, i am going to miss asking him on the withdrawal plan for taiwan. What a great loss!

Badgering people for classified information

coolgod

Captain

Mirabo

Junior Member

Blitzo

Lieutenant General

5unrise

Junior Member

ACuriousPLAFan

Colonel

Abominable

Major

56860

Senior Member

bjj_starter

New Member

Abominable

Major

Jj888

New Member