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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
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Concerning the survey, if you look back in history, I recall most Americans were reluctant in getting involved with WW1 saying it is a war in the old world and again the similar reaction before WW2 and yet Americans went to war.
If the war is confined to a skirmish for some uninhabited isles in the East China sea I do not see why Australia will want to get involved and basically Japan could defend herself if it is confined in that immediate area not asking Australia to get involved BUT history has proven again and again that it is rarely isolated and easily spread to other regions in SE China sea with Vietnam, Philippines and Taiwan wanting to obtain their share while PRC preoccupied fighting Japan.
This will lead to a complete embargo in the SE China sea with subs shooting at any ships warship or otherwise that dares enter.
Nations will also start cutting underwater communication cables in the area as well.
This will place Australia in a very difficult position, no longer having the luxury to maintain neutrality.
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I really like that crest Sam, that is kool bruda!
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Regarding the poll on the last page -- I feel like understanding the methodology of their survey is the most important determinant of the poll's validity. Phrasing of the question, sample bias, etc are all factors that could invalidate it.

on the ACRI website they have both a press release regarding the poll as well as the actual polling research:
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As someone with a background in stats and psychological/social surveying, it makes interesting reading to me.

Now, if we read the way the questions were laid out in the latter document, we can see that they sort of "lead on" from one to the next. It starts by asking if the individual is aware of the tensions in the ECS, and then goes on to steadily add the weight of "responsibility" to the individual by "pressuring" them to make the hypothetical decision as to whether Australia should commit.
I would argue this could be a case of bias, and it may have been worthwhile to conduct such questions in a more spaced out way. However I don't think any survey is perfect, and I do think the questions listed are written quite clearly. The last question especially, regarding the effect of conflict on Australian trade with China, is quite a specific one.

What neither document provides is the exact methodology and populace surveyed, but I'm going to assume that the methodology and sample was a valid one -- this is really STATS 101 and I doubt a think tank from a relatively respected university would dare to tamper with something so sacred and simple.

Now, assuming the poll was conducted in a valid fashion, then I think we should take the results for what they do say in their limited scope. There will always be people in the media who frame a result without sufficient context, and your everyday fellow will automatically make assumptions as well.
I think we need to take these results in context of the time period they were taken in: maybe in a year, the situation will have changed dramatically, or maybe the results would differ if the surveyor asked individuals to first do a week of research on the topic before hand.
Also, I want to add that the scenarios are deliberately limited in scope -- this is both a practical necessity due to the way surveys are carried out, but they may also provide a source of bias, as it could be argued (like by Samuraiblue) that a conflict limited to ECS could spill over into other areas, and that if those additional conflicts were included in the survey scenarios then the voting might have come out differently. I'm not sure if this is a fully legitimate criticism, however. On the one hand, the results could be easily (and incorrectly) flaunted as something akin to "Australia will remain neutral in any China-Japan/US conflict!!!" which would be a false generalization of the result. But on the other hand, that doesn't mean we should dismiss the result simply because it is limited in scope; I think it is still useful for the exact situation described in the survey. That is to say, the results can only be considered in a scope described by the scenario -- if it was only a conflict between China-Japan/US limited to the ECS, then Australians (note, not the Aus govt) may prefer to stay neutral. The survey doesn't tell us if Australians would stay neutral if the conflict was across an extended period, if it expands beyond ECS scope, nor the effect of media coverage, and how exactly the conflict unfolds, etc.
I also think an interesting question would have been to see how much Australians value trade with China, versus differing kinds of conflicts and tensions. That unfrotunately is difficult to survey, and what they do instead is simply say that Australians believe siding against China would cause their trade to drop.

IMHO the most telling statistic from this survey is that slightly over half of Australians were unaware of the tensions in the ECS, and even fewer are aware of the US commitment to those tensions. Therefore we need to consider all the other subsequent results based on the fact that these two key facts are not majority knowledge. That is to say, most of the sample surveyed probably are not very aware of the geopolitical situation (which would be expected, of course).

In other words, the results of this survey simply represent the opinions of that brief time period of the overall Australian population who probably lack a strong awareness of the geopolitical effect of the ECS disputes on their own country.
That leads to awkward questions about surveys, voting, democracy, and how much one should consider the opinions of a population who are not fully aware of a situation... but that's a massive can of worms better left untouched.

I think the biggest take away from this survey is that more surveys on the matter is needed, and preferably in more detail. I would be most interested to see how much Australians value trade with China as years pass, and just at what kind of conflict scenario involving their traditional allies that they would be willing to sacrifice it.
 
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Brumby

Major
Bltizo,

This poll should be read in context :
(i) It didn't make it to the local front page or the 6:00 news because polls like this generally do not attract interest with the local population especially the abstract nature of such polls
(ii) Australian political polls tend to swing like yoyo. If polls were the benchmark, Australia would have a change of government every 3 months. .
(iii)Australians tend to be issues specific and will carefully consider the situation should a more tangible event arise. This is how each Australian generation is brought up i.e. be independent minded, evaluate and consider each issue as it present itself. Propaganda don't work well with the nation.
(iv)Australia do have a long history on how it make choices concerning conflict and it would require extraordinary circumstances to deviate from that path because as a nation it holds very similar core values as the US.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Bltizo,

This poll should be read in context :
(i) It didn't make it to the local front page or the 6:00 news because polls like this generally do not attract interest with the local population especially the abstract nature of such polls
(ii) Australian political polls tend to swing like yoyo. If polls were the benchmark, Australia would have a change of government every 3 months. .
(iii)Australians tend to be issues specific and will carefully consider the situation should a more tangible event arise. This is how each Australian generation is brought up i.e. be independent minded, evaluate and consider each issue as it present itself. Propaganda don't work well with the nation.
(iv)Australia do have a long history on how it make choices concerning conflict and it would require extraordinary circumstances to deviate from that path because as a nation it holds very similar core values as the US.

i: I'm not sure what this point is meant to demonstrate. Just because it doesn't make the 6:00 news doesn't mean it's not an interesting result?
ii: I do agree that opinion polls of any kind never remain too static for long, and that is why I'd be interested in some kind of annual poll on the subject.
iii: Well I never mentioned anything about propaganda. Regarding the "carefully consider the situation" part, if that is addressed towards the part of my post about Australians mostly being unaware of the details of the ECS dispute, then yes, I agree with you. I mean we're basically saying the same thing just in reverse.
iv: Sure. What I'm interested in is whether we are in a period where extraordinary circumstances have started to emerge.


I'm not really sure how any of your points directly address my overall stance from my last post, or if it's just your own 2 cents on the matter in general.
I fully agree this poll should be read in context, and not be blown out of proportion by media. But like it or not, assuming the methodology of the poll was valid, the result of the poll is definitely eyebrow raising and I think warrants further investigation. It is too early to draw any kind of definite conclusion, but what it does do is start to ask some (possibly awkward) questions regarding the nature of Australia's relationship with China and how that would effect and be effected by any kind of conflict involving traditional Australian allies.

Of course, I am very interested in how my friends over the ditch think, given their opinion may not differ very much to that of us Kiwis. Certainly Australia and NZ are both facing similar economic relationships with China, and both countries are also traditional US allies.
 

Brumby

Major
i: I'm not sure what this point is meant to demonstrate. Just because it doesn't make the 6:00 news doesn't mean it's not an interesting result?
ii: I do agree that opinion polls of any kind never remain too static for long, and that is why I'd be interested in some kind of annual poll on the subject.
iii: Well I never mentioned anything about propaganda. Regarding the "carefully consider the situation" part, if that is addressed towards the part of my post about Australians mostly being unaware of the details of the ECS dispute, then yes, I agree with you. I mean we're basically saying the same thing just in reverse.
iv: Sure. What I'm interested in is whether we are in a period where extraordinary circumstances have started to emerge.


I'm not really sure how any of your points directly address my overall stance from my last post, or if it's just your own 2 cents on the matter in general.
I fully agree this poll should be read in context, and not be blown out of proportion by media. But like it or not, assuming the methodology of the poll was valid, the result of the poll is definitely eyebrow raising and I think warrants further investigation. It is too early to draw any kind of definite conclusion, but what it does do is start to ask some (possibly awkward) questions regarding the nature of Australia's relationship with China and how that would effect and be effected by any kind of conflict involving traditional Australian allies.

Of course, I am very interested in how my friends over the ditch think, given their opinion may not differ very much to that of us Kiwis. Certainly Australia and NZ are both facing similar economic relationships with China, and both countries are also traditional US allies.

IMHO, this poll has zilch significance or meaning if attempting to read into it.
 

Blitzo

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Isn't what your post #322 is attempting to do? You are expressing how you view it and I am simply expressing mine.

Err yeah, well my position is: "there are some interesting findings that warrant investigation, but the present survey is limited and its results needs to be put in context."
Are you saying your position is: "this survey is complete rubbish and it has nothing worth investigating"?
I mean, logically speaking I think your position is a little more difficult to back up than mine.

That is why I ask what you mean by "read into it". If you want to say the entire survey and its results is BS then that's absolutely fine, but I think it's only logical if some kind of reasoning with evidence was provided (e.g.: sample bias, incorrect methodology, result tampering, etc)
 

Brumby

Major
Err yeah, well my position is: "there are some interesting findings that warrant investigation, but the present survey is limited and its results needs to be put in context."
Are you saying your position is: "this survey is complete rubbish and it has nothing worth investigating"?
I mean, logically speaking I think your position is a little more difficult to back up than mine.

I don't have any issue with your approach of taking the results, interpreting it and drawing certain judgment from it. That is a specific way and choice that you have made.

That is why I ask what you mean by "read into it". If you want to say the entire survey and its results is BS then that's absolutely fine, but I think it's only logical if some kind of reasoning with evidence was provided (e.g.: sample bias, incorrect methodology, result tampering, etc)

I am simply taking a different view from the perspective of a holistic view that in reality would be fundamentally driven by actual events rather than some abstract conditions. Since the poll is driven by the latter I would hesitate to draw anything meaningful from it because the populace is best sum up as clueless until actual choices present themselves. .
 

Blitzo

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I don't have any issue with your approach of taking the results, interpreting it and drawing certain judgment from it. That is a specific way and choice that you have made.


I am simply taking a different view from the perspective of a holistic view that in reality would be fundamentally driven by actual events rather than some abstract conditions. Since the poll is driven by the latter I would hesitate to draw anything meaningful from it because the populace is best sum up as clueless until actual choices present themselves. .

I see. Then I have two follow up questions:

1: would you say that you are generally dismissive of all surveys that involve hypothetical scenarios? Because hypothetical scenarios are the basis of virtually all psychological, social, marketing research, or any research involving the predicting of behaviours and opinions.
2: if the results of this survey had been (let's say...) 71% supports joining Japan and the US in a conflict scenario and only 15% supported neutrality, would you still be completely dismissive of the survey and results because it is driven by abstract hypotheticals rather than actual events?
 
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