American Economics Thread


voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
anglos trying to do 'state capitalism' are going to fail because Chinese state capitalism mobilises the entire society to achieve goals as the semiconductor industries and Huawei can testify. Anglo society can't even agree on genders, let alone scientific evolution; what chance do they have in competing against china?
Meh its not as clear cut as you say it is.

Lets not forget that before Xi came in power the same things you describe the "anglos" to be where all happening on China as well. Massive corruption, massive bribes.

The CPC was probably with one foot to the grave when Hu Jintao had stepped down. And when Xi was chosen to lead China, a "soft" coup was attempted by the corrupt elements in the CPC.

The rest is history. So by saying that only China can do state capitalism with success thats only applies for the past decade. Before Xi, China was losing tremendous money for inefficiencies and corruption on its SOEs.
 

siegecrossbow

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Meh its not as clear cut as you say it is.

Lets not forget that before Xi came in power the same things you describe the "anglos" to be where all happening on China as well. Massive corruption, massive bribes.

The CPC was probably with one foot to the grave when Hu Jintao had stepped down. And when Xi was chosen to lead China, a "soft" coup was attempted by the corrupt elements in the CPC.

The rest is history. So by saying that only China can do state capitalism with success thats only applies for the past decade. Before Xi, China was losing tremendous money for inefficiencies and corruption on its SOEs.

For all his faults (extremely thin skin/crackdown on opposition etc.), I admit that Xi is the type of leader China needs for this period in time.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
For all his faults (extremely thin skin/crackdown on opposition etc.), I admit that Xi is the type of leader China needs for this period in time.
I agree with you. However a bigger fault of his (IMO) is that he didnt institutionalized his anti-corruption efforts to ensure that anti-corruption remains everlasting.

He has used the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI), which is under the Party, to lead the anti-corruption campaign. So whoever commands the Party can ignore this commitee and here we go again with corruption, bribes etc

You see the problem right? For all the good he has done, his bigger fault is to not build strong and independent institutions to fight corruption which is the biggest weakness of China's one party political system. So what happens after Xi goes away.......

He is trying to build a country based on law, but the Party's existence itself prevents him from going too far with strong laws and enforcement of them.

AFAIK Xi wants to utilise digital and transparent governance to combat low and medium level corruption. As for high level corruption, Politburo, then he cant do much
 
I agree with you. However a bigger fault of his (IMO) is that he didnt institutionalized his anti-corruption efforts to ensure that anti-corruption remains everlasting.

He has used the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI), which is under the Party, to lead the anti-corruption campaign. So whoever commands the Party can ignore this commitee and here we go again with corruption, bribes etc

You see the problem right? For all the good he has done, his bigger fault is to not build strong and independent institutions to fight corruption which is the biggest weakness of China's one party political system. So what happens after Xi goes away.......

He is trying to build a country based on law, but the Party's existence itself prevents him from going too far with strong laws and enforcement of them.

AFAIK Xi wants to utilise digital and transparent governance to combat low and medium level corruption. As for high level corruption, Politburo, then he cant do much
That's not realistic; you are suggesting that he create an entity in China that has power above that of the CCP to combat corruption? And how do you trust those people and ensure that they do not become corrupt? Create another entity above them to audit them? It's endless and all comes down to putting the people who are trustworthy into positions of power, instead of compensating for lack of trust by creating more and more positions of power above one another. A purge of the corrupt and replacement with the trustworthy is the best way to combat corruption with immediate results... and when those results fade with time (which they ultimately will at some speed just as everyone is more alert and perfect on the job on day 1 than 10 years into it), we can only hope that whomever is in charge then can purge again. Nobody can guarantee what happens when he is gone but thankfully with Xi, that's not a bridge we will come across soon.
 

crash8pilot

Junior Member
Registered Member
I agree with you. However a bigger fault of his (IMO) is that he didnt institutionalized his anti-corruption efforts to ensure that anti-corruption remains everlasting.

He has used the Central Commission for Discipline Inspection (CCDI), which is under the Party, to lead the anti-corruption campaign. So whoever commands the Party can ignore this commitee and here we go again with corruption, bribes etc

You see the problem right? For all the good he has done, his bigger fault is to not build strong and independent institutions to fight corruption which is the biggest weakness of China's one party political system. So what happens after Xi goes away.......

He is trying to build a country based on law, but the Party's existence itself prevents him from going too far with strong laws and enforcement of them.

AFAIK Xi wants to utilise digital and transparent governance to combat low and medium level corruption. As for high level corruption, Politburo, then he cant do much
Each party institution (from every level of government from province all the way down to county/village, SOE, and social organization) has its own CCDI department. Prior to Xi coming into office, each level of CCDI reports to the party secretary of the respective institution... alas the party secretary of said institution could prevent their own CCDI from reporting their crimes/corruption further up the party chain. That's how Bo Xilai managed to get away with his alleged corruption until Xi came to power.

When Xi became General Secretary, he passed reforms that restructured the CCDI where each level of CCDI institution reported to the Secretary of the CCDI (at the the time Wang Qishan, Xi's closest ally and current Vice President of the country) rather than the respective level of party secretary. Under such structure should another corrupt government official like Bo Xilai comes along, their respective level of CCDI director is empowered and has the means to report his/her crimes up to the Secretary of the CCDI so that the Central Commission and Politburo can effectively deal with the problem. In that sense I think Xi has done a rather good job ensuring the CPC has long term measures to deal with corruption, even after he steps away from office.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
Each party institution (from every level of government from province all the way down to county/village, SOE, and social organization) has its own CCDI department. Prior to Xi coming into office, each level of CCDI reports to the party secretary of the respective institution... alas the party secretary of said institution could prevent their own CCDI from reporting their crimes/corruption further up the party chain. That's how Bo Xilai managed to get away with his alleged corruption until Xi came to power.

When Xi became General Secretary, he passed reforms that restructured the CCDI where each level of CCDI institution reported to the Secretary of the CCDI (at the the time Wang Qishan, Xi's closest ally and current Vice President of the country) rather than the respective level of party secretary. Under such structure should another corrupt government official like Bo Xilai comes along, their respective level of CCDI director is empowered and has the means to report his/her crimes up to the Secretary of the CCDI so that the Central Commission and Politburo can effectively deal with the problem. In that sense I think Xi has done a rather good job ensuring the CPC has long term measures to deal with corruption, even after he steps away from office.
Bur hasn't that "just" moved the corruption ladder from local to central Gov (Party committees)

So whoever controls the CCDI can systemically corrupt everyone under him due to the powers he now helds.

This is the frustrating problem with corruption. You move anti-corruption to central for better controls but then corruption also moves at central lol

IMO only digital governance can solve this forever problem of corruption and it is very promising that Xi has started taking steps towards this

We all know this will take time however I guess that by the time Xi steps down (2032?) and if everything goes well, then this digital governance will dramatically cut down corruption at all levels.

Anyway this is offtopic so I will stop here
 

crash8pilot

Junior Member
Registered Member
Bur hasn't that "just" moved the corruption ladder from local to central Gov (Party committees)
It is moved it so that the Standing Committee (since the Secretary of the CCDI is a Politburo Standing Committee position) can directly control corruption.

So whoever controls the CCDI can systemically corrupt everyone under him due to the powers he now helds.
CCDI reports directly to the General Secretary, alas why the department itself is a powerful organ of the party and why all General Secretaries are careful with who they pick for the CCDI position. Case and point Xi's first CCDI was Wang Qishan, his closest ally and still has a lot of sway in party affairs as Vice President and party elder. His current CCDI, Zhao Leji, is a close family friend growing up.

This is the frustrating problem with corruption. You move anti-corruption to central for better controls but then corruption also moves at central lol
Xi isn't moving the management of corruption from the bottom to the center, he's moved it all the way to the top of the party.

IMO only digital governance can solve this forever problem of corruption and it is very promising that Xi has started taking steps towards this

We all know this will take time however I guess that by the time Xi steps down (2032?) and if everything goes well, then this digital governance will dramatically cut down corruption at all levels.
I agree digitalization will help improve governance and the mitigation of corruption. However the General Secretary has enough on his portfolio leading the country, there still needs to be a dedicated organ (and an individual at the end of the organ) to almost 'micromanage' discipline and corruption.
 

B.I.B.

Captain
Biden is what 80? He wont even survive that long to see the consequences of his reckless spending. No wonder the word "fiscal discipline" doesn't exist in his dictionary.
You guys have got me stumped. When China created mored debt it was ok because it was being spent on development and infrastructure. When the U.S. does it for the same purpose , she gets ridiculed?
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
You guys have got me stumped. When China created mored debt it was ok because it was being spent on development and infrastructure. When the U.S. does it for the same purpose , she gets ridiculed?
Check this out to see why
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Spending on roads, bridges and major infrastructure projects would drop to $120 billion, down from Biden's initial proposal of $159 billion
So this 1.7 trillion "Infrastructure" bill contains "only" 120 billion for "roads, bridges and major infrastructure projects"
 

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