Almaz S-300: China's "Offensive" Air Defense
- Thread starter crazyinsane105
- Start date
ff I think its obvious Mr. Kongo is one of the folks from CDF (or some other forum) and probably has a reputation there too. I've seen people banned here for FAR FAR less than his flaming so far. 
Ok Kongo, you have been now offically warned. If you don't have anything more to say about the topic, then move along but don't continue it simply for the sake of arguing and plain trolling around.
Take this advice with gratitude, it's the only one you are going to get. Next time I spot you doing the same, it wont end up nicely...:nono:
Gollevainen
Supermod
Take this advice with gratitude, it's the only one you are going to get. Next time I spot you doing the same, it wont end up nicely...:nono:
Gollevainen
Supermod
The latest batch of Chinese S-300 PMU2 came with the 5P85TE2 TEL mounted on the BAZ-64022 tractor, which is used by the Russians for their S-400 system.
click to enlarge
There is some speculation that other elements of the S-400 have been integrated in the latest models of the S-300 PMU2. For example:
click to enlarge
There is some speculation that other elements of the S-400 have been integrated in the latest models of the S-300 PMU2. For example:
Ambivalent
Junior Member
One little detail everyone is missing is that the S-300 system is thoroughly understood by the USAF. They have batteries of them at Nellis AFB, including examples of the complete battery including all the radars at the Threat Training Facility, nick named The Petting Zoo. Suppressing them and countering them will not be an insurmountable problem.
You can scan about half way down this web site to see photos from the Petting Zoo.
You can scan about half way down this web site to see photos from the Petting Zoo.
RedMercury
Junior Member
Your assertion that the USAF can defeat any and all S-300 systems around the world is based on the assumption that the version the USAF has is the version various nations use. I find this highly unlikely given that hardware, firmware, and software can be upgraded. If one assumes one's opponents are standing still, well...
plawolf
Lieutenant General
And thats one of the reasons why China insists on being able to domestically manufacture all weapons it buys from Russia.
The Russians would never be stupid enough to compromise their own national security by selling the same version of weapons as what their forces are using, but one could suspect that they might not be quite so diligent in ensuring each export country gets a distinct enough version that they would not be compromised if similar systems sold to another country were studied close enough.
The Chinese are capable to making the necessary changes to ensure the operational viability of their weapons systems by making adjustments and improvements to the Russian systems with their own technology and codes. They will be doing that with their domestically produced versions and would almost certainly be retrofitting ready-made examples purchased from the Russians.
It would be stupid to expect to stroll in and counter all of China's air defenses with a few clever codes simply because the USAF managed to get a couple of obsolete S300 sets.
The Russians would never be stupid enough to compromise their own national security by selling the same version of weapons as what their forces are using, but one could suspect that they might not be quite so diligent in ensuring each export country gets a distinct enough version that they would not be compromised if similar systems sold to another country were studied close enough.
The Chinese are capable to making the necessary changes to ensure the operational viability of their weapons systems by making adjustments and improvements to the Russian systems with their own technology and codes. They will be doing that with their domestically produced versions and would almost certainly be retrofitting ready-made examples purchased from the Russians.
It would be stupid to expect to stroll in and counter all of China's air defenses with a few clever codes simply because the USAF managed to get a couple of obsolete S300 sets.
Ambivalent
Junior Member
There is only so much that can be done with the basic hardware. Antenna design will define the wave forms possible. Having that gives one a huge leg up developing and testing countermeasures. Were I a user of such a system, I would not be too certain it will not be defeated by a combination of ECM and anti-radiation missiles. Keep in mind you do not have to destroy every battery or defeat every battery every single time to overcome an enemy. Good enough really is good enough in combat. The USAF took two losses over Serbia, hardly a victory for Serbian air defenses, and not nearly enough to deter Nato air attacks, or stave off the eventual capitulation of the Serbs.
I am oft reminded of Stuart Slade's claims of how a full ABM system would render ICBMs effectively obsolete, but there are quite a few details that seem to be overlooked...
Good example, war over Serbia. Officially, serbs managed to down one to two planes (it was never really clear what downed the second one - was it a simple mechanical failiure, or was it somehow induced by SAM fire) In addition, a third airplane was confirmed to be damaged in action and, upon returning to base, never flew again. There are two more instances of damaged NATO planes but they can't be confirmed so we'll disregard them here. So, in reality, 2.5 losses.
And that was a situation where the attacker had massive numerical advantage - where it could jam with multiple jammers per radar, attack with multiple HARMs per radar, etc, etc, and all that was 1999 technology versus a mix of very old radar and SAM technology. Most modern piece of AD equipment (sans AAA and short range, low altitude SAMs) Serbs had was Kub-M system, which is mid 70s technology. They also had S-125, which is mid 60s technology. In addition, they had P-12, P-14 and P-40 surveillance radars, which are all, at best, mid 60s technology. Even if certain parts were modernized, nothing was modernized past the end of cold war, when Yugoslavia dissolved and with it, better part of its amry.
20-30 year technology gap and numerical superiority resulted in 2.5 planes downed/neutralized for good. One can only try to deduce what could happen in a situation where there is little, if any, numerical superiority, and a 10-15 year technology gap.
And that was a situation where the attacker had massive numerical advantage - where it could jam with multiple jammers per radar, attack with multiple HARMs per radar, etc, etc, and all that was 1999 technology versus a mix of very old radar and SAM technology. Most modern piece of AD equipment (sans AAA and short range, low altitude SAMs) Serbs had was Kub-M system, which is mid 70s technology. They also had S-125, which is mid 60s technology. In addition, they had P-12, P-14 and P-40 surveillance radars, which are all, at best, mid 60s technology. Even if certain parts were modernized, nothing was modernized past the end of cold war, when Yugoslavia dissolved and with it, better part of its amry.
20-30 year technology gap and numerical superiority resulted in 2.5 planes downed/neutralized for good. One can only try to deduce what could happen in a situation where there is little, if any, numerical superiority, and a 10-15 year technology gap.