Aircraft Carriers II (Closed to posting)

Vertical takeoffs are very heavy on fuel, which is why they are practically never used operationally. A nice trick for airshows, but of little use otherwise. Rolling takeoffs are much more fuel efficient and using the ski jump improves matter further.

Another factor that is coming in and forcing the f35B is the marines have said it's bravo or no go. the Marines have made a hard investment in the program with the hopes of streamlining there entire aviation force, IE A single attack helo (AH-1z), Single utility lifter (UH-1y), Osprey as there medium heavy, CH53K ultra heavy helo, Kc130J tanker transport, and last but not least the F35B as a multimission platform replacing EA6, F18, AV-8 although a few F35C's will also bare the name Marines. the concept allow a eased supply and spare parts line for the future.

Jeff Head said:

I am very well aware of and acquainted with the development programs of both systems...and the cost in terms of money, material, and lives.

The test pilots and the soldiers involved know the risks, God bless them for taking those risks so we can be defended. In order to be defended we must upgrade our systems and technology. There is inherant risks in doing so. Always has been...always will be.

As to is being cool or not, I am sorry if I misread your last quote, but at the end you did say,

"Yeah it's cool and look awesome BUT is it worth it?".

I repeat, I believe that like the Osprey, the F-35B will end up successful and deployed. I also believe that both technologies will also be critical to our ability to defend ourselves.

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Talking about the USMC requirements, another project that comes to mind is the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle except that one was officially cancel.. Do you agree that was a good decision or a bad one?

kwaigonegin said:

Talking about the USMC requirements, another project that comes to mind is the Expeditionary Fighting Vehicle except that one was officially cancel.. Do you agree that was a good decision or a bad one?

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In that instance, though I would have personalluy preferred to see the EFV completed, both the Secretary of the Navy and the Commandant of the Marine Corps publically recommmended its cancellation.

Even though the program was plagued with problems (much higher costs and failures that resulted in the 2007 decision to, in essence, completely restart the program), with that behind them the program was moving along much better, but the principle reason cited at the cancellation was because their future threat analysis showed that they could accomplish the mission successfully by extending the life (including adding new electronics and weapons) to existing vehicles until a replacement, less capable and less costly new vehicle was developed and delivered.

Clearly poilitcal pressure and the resulting overrun in budget from the earlier big problems also figured into it.

But, given the reasons cited, and given the state of technology and the threat analysis, I do not believe the same conditions that applied to the EFV apply with either the V-22 or the J-35B.

Time will tell...but I believe the J-35B will continue. Anyhow we are getting further and further off topic from Carriers and had best get back to the purpose of this thread..

kwaigonegin said:

Jeff, like I said it's NOT about being cool but it seems like a lot of people like it because it's cool. If we have unlimited budget sure.. but we don't. You liken it to the V-22 which is great because I agree EXCEPT the V-22 even though is extremely capable BUT you would cringe if you really know the 'real' story in it's development and what the program ultimately cost in terms of $$$$$ and the cost of lives due to crashes etc. $$$$$ that would've been better spent elsewhere and perhaps get an even MORE capable platform then the Osprey..
Somethings are just not worth it even if it's finally proven to be a capable platform.
Dang! now you make me sound like a pansy ass liberal!

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LOL...define pansy ass liberal! Anyway, it's true the expenses are enormous but the intellectual technology and military missions will pay off in the long run. Inflation man, it cost so much more to pay for engineers and designers to test anything new as far as military technology these days.

on top of which the marines have stated they still intend too try for a IFV capability in the form of the Amphibious Combat Vehicle although I wounder if it might not be possible too gain some of the capabilities via the Marine personal carrier, A variant armed with the Mk44 weapons system and a active defense system like say Iron Fist should have the protection needed although it would not be capable of packing in the 17 marines of the EFV.

Back on topic...

Here ya' go.. more pix of the Lightning II aboard the Wasp. Interesting that the Wasp was the sea trails ship for the Osprey.

ATLANTIC OCEAN (Oct. 4, 2011) Lt. Col. Fred Schenk lifts an F-35B Lightning II off the flight deck of the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1). The F-35B is the Marine Corps Joint Strike Force variant of the Joint Strike Fighter. The aircraft is undergoing testing aboard Wasp. (U.S. Navy photo By Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Andrew Rivard/Released)

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ATLANTIC OCEAN (Oct. 4, 2011) An F-35B Lightning II is secured in the hangar bay aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1). (U.S. Navy photo By Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Andrew Rivard/Released)

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ATLANTIC OCEAN (Oct. 4, 2011) Chief Aviation Boatswain's Mate (Handling) Kristopher Smith gives the thumbs up for pilot Lt. Col. Fred Schenk to lift an F-35B Lightning II off the flight deck of the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1).(U.S. Navy photo By Mass Communication Specialist Seaman Andrew Rivard/Released)

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ATLANTIC OCEAN (Oct. 3, 2011) An aviation boatswain's mate directs an F-35B Lightning II after it completes the first vertical landing on a flight deck at sea aboard the amphibious assault ship USS Wasp (LHD 1). (U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Justin K. Thomas/Released)

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bd popeye said:

Back on topic...

Here ya' go.. more pix of the Lightning II aboard the Wasp. Interesting that the Wasp was the sea trails ship for the Osprey.

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Outstanding!

I love the one of the aircraft in the hangar bay.

She could hold a whole slew of 'em! LOL! Now, if they get these aircraft procurred and deployed and will just develop that SV-22 Osprey (ASW Variant) and the EV-22 Osprey (AEW Variant) and place about 2-4 of each on the Wasp and America vessels, we would be talking about a very capable carrier in its own right...probably as powerful as any other carrier out there short of the US Nuclear carriers.

Yes, I think an LHA America with 24 F-35Bs, 4 SV-22s, 4 EV-22s, and some SAR helos, escorted by a Tico, a couple of Burke's and a Virginia SSN, would be the match for almost any other carrier out there outside of the US CVNs.

...and if not, then close enough.

Jeff Head said:

Yes, I think an LHA America with 24 F-35Bs, 4 SV-22s, 4 EV-22s, and some SAR helos, escorted by a Tico, a couple of Burke's and a Virginia SSN, would be the match for almost any other carrier out there outside of the US CVNs.
...and if not, then close enough.

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I think in case of dire need, they probably have the capability for carrier conversion. But it's not in the Navy's best interest to advertise this, least it gives lawmakers ideas about imposing cost savings via smaller sized carriers in the future.

adeptitus said:

I think in case of dire need, they probably have the capability for carrier conversion. But it's not in the Navy's best interest to advertise this, least it gives lawmakers ideas about imposing cost savings via smaller sized carriers in the future.

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This is essentially the reason why the Americans won't put ski jumps on their LHA/LHD fleet, they want to maintain the fiction (for the benefit of Congress) that these ships are just fancy amphibious transports with a flat roof, not potentially useful as auxilliary carriers. Please remember this the next time someone asks why they don't have the ramp, even though the Marine pilots really want them.