2019 India-Pakistani border clash


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timepass

Brigadier
BREAKING IN ..

Pakistan Deploys Entire F-16 Squadrons on Indian Border - Report...



Pakistan on Monday issued a warning to India not to undertake any misadventure in view of the upcoming national elections in the country. India had earlier asserted that it is maintaining an optimal level of military preparedness to tackle any eventuality.

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jatt

Junior Member
I'm sorry but what you wrote was a bunch of incoherent nonsense with no logic at all. I don't know if it's because English is not your native language, your thoughts are disorganized, that you are having a hard time twist this to look like India won, or some combination of the three.

Facts are:
1. India struck into Pakistani territory; regardless of whether anything was damaged, this merits a harsh retaliatory response. It's the principle that you cannot strike into the territory of another sovereign nation.
2. Pakistan responded by striking into Indian territory purposefully destroying nothing and when India responded, Pakistan shot its jet down.
3. Pakistan returned India's pilot out of good will (or maybe they felt sorry for the guy because he couldn't stop praising Pakistan when he was in captivity) while India keeps trying to keep the issue alive through either asking the US to investigate or by raising the terrorist issue, which it has no evidence of.

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First off your not apologizing for anything unless your saying you don't comprehend what i'm saying which could be possible but then calling incoherent nonsense with out logic just undermined any apology you were trying to make. Or perhaps you were trying to be polite because I did not give too much of an effort in my posting because the post wasn't to your "standards". I am though having a difficult time trying to put events into a logical story, but perhaps an professional writer will do it better months or years down the road. Regardless, thats not much of apology.
1. It is not a complete fact. More policy and opinion. FACT: India violated Pakistani territory and airspace. Thats a fact. Retaliation is policy depended on the nation not a fact and not always true. For instance, during Bush and Obama days, Pakistan and its civilians plus terrorists America identified were sent to hell with precision drone strikes resulting in civilian casualties sometime women and children, a fact denied by the Pakistani military and government for years until near or after OBL raid which many Pakistani civilians still deny.
Now you see number 2 is fact mostly according to India their attempt is foiled. I however like to believe that munitions had their fuzes disabled which is what the DGISPR said but thats still an act of war. Luckily, India's policy is decided by a civilian government and not a machine like the Indian military.
3 is NOT much FACT and mostly opinion, mostly yours and highly childish. Pakistan did return this pilot but I don't think Pakistanis felt sorry for him. Peace gesture sure, because with out the pilot, the Indian military could have retaliated heavily for 1 pilot because as I've mentioned before, targeting military installations is an act of war, and shooting BVR missiles into Indian airspace may also be considered and act of war if not aggression by upping the ROE. The mentioned pilot also didn't praise Pakistan, he praised the commander, captian of the pakistani military that picked him up and saved him from the MOB that would have killed him or at least cause serious injury and they did attack him even after apprehending him and for all we know he may or may not have of had a gun pointed at his head. So much love. That being said, the Indian side will follow up with the US on the issue of the F-16 use in aggressive attacks on India, its what the diplomats get paid to do. India is after all a big nation with a big bureaucracy that can do more than one thing, and reducing the strength of the Pakistani military is always high on the agenda long before this incident and will remain so, because Pakistan and India have fought 3 and half wars in less than a century each time Pakistan being armed by the United States as a major Non Nato Ally. So you want to blame them for this because its childish and what losers do? As for the terrorists, there may be damning evidence or not but that would be the opinion of Pakistan. Thats what India is trying to change, and this story is NOT only being sold to America but the global community and is working so far because NOT 1 nation condemned or blinked when India violated Pakistans sovereignty in pretext of justice. And dare I say, you sound like you know these chumps in LeT personally. But I could have sworn you where Chinese.
FYI just because you use numbers or bullet points doesn't make your argument anymore compelling. Visually it looks better, but if there isn't critical thinking behind it, its a wasted effort.
Impunity may be strong word but more or less is what India got. I didn't lose a jet, India did, my jets fine parked in front of the landing strip, still making sorties, but i digress. So let me start off by saying AGAIN, India violated Pakistani sovereignty, not done since 1971 which was a full scale war. During the strikes, Pakistan DID NOT SHOOT at or down any Indian aircraft AFAIK. Pakistan "RESPONDED" the day after by doing the same resulting in the DOGFIGHT mentioned with shots being fired by PAF with BVR missiles and the lone Indian Mig-21 that was shot down. One thing to NOTE; Pakistan did not shoot at Indian planes when they performed the "strike", they shot back AFTER being CHASED by IAF for their strikes on military installations. Also IMPORTANT to NOTE the Pakistani MEA did NOT mention retaliation or Indian strikes as the excuse for their adventure into the Indian side. Of course I'll leave it up to you as to why they didn't mention any excuse for violating Indian airspace. But case in point, your absolutely right. IMPUNITY was too large a word for Indian action and reaction. India is not America but still managed to get away with it with only 1 lose. The pilot. To your other point of proof of dead bodies; India will never show the proof, and I'd like to believe it is because it gives a level of deniability to the Pakistani military and government. Had India provided PROOF (with DEAD bodies), Pakistani military would have been that much more pressured to actually target India with real bombs and say it was RETALIATION ultimately leading up the escalation ladder. The same thing was done earlier. Because Pakistan CAN and HAVE hid bodies of their own civilians in crossfire with out little accountability. But please explain to me, WHY PAF reaction was so GREAT in the aftermath of the strikes in Pakistan? Could they not have fabricated a story, and say they chased Indians out and won the day? Why the need to risk war? It just raises more questions YOU DON"T THINK? Also, I don't shoot into the sky, because...you know gravity. And you will end up providing proof, you didn't shoot up into the sky in crowded city. But thats not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is you expect me to believe your logic or your argument about the f-16. I honestly don't care too much about the F-16. Thats more of debate that needs to be in the aviation dept. being scrutinized by the bird brains who find it relevant. I'm not going to try and convince you. I only picked with you because your posts a ridiculous and full....contemptuous BS. Full stop. As if you know what your talking about. Because I provided my 2 cents and opinion and like fox I hope its fair balanced leading people to ask more questions and narratives. What you provided was ignorant boarding on illiterate, passing it off as informative educational FACT than actual substance. You are NOT some one that understands the deep modern history of South Asia. I for one think you 0pinon is based on watching select Indian television clips to form you mindless opinion as if the India state is in whole represented by the media.
There's a lot of nitpicking to be had in your post however I will start with the lowest hanging fruit... The part about you saying the F-16 narrative is something 'no one cares' about is intellectually dishonest because it WAS/IS the Indian government/media/public etc. that were hyping it it all up all day and all night long like Lionel Ritchie's hit from the 80s. with the amraam casing, disingenuous photos claiming the f-16 wreckage, other 'events' etc.
Again read my last part. India is NOT the CCP. The India media talks about everything from Modis fruity attire to soldiers attire. They don't have clear agenda like CCTV. If you were really serious about what you type, perhaps you would have posted something on ROE, or PAF's intention on tactical level and equipment being operated, instead you offer nothing of the sort.
Secondly I believe it is ALSO intellectually dishonest on your part to presume that the IAF purposely went in with the sole INTENTION to just bomb trees for the reasons you mentioned. Not only is that purely 100% conjecture on your part but a very silly one at that and runs counter to what IAF has already publicly announced the mission objective which was to destroy the Jaish-e-Mohammed madrassah.
I'm NOT saying thats what I believe with certainty but people do believe this in Pakistan mostly and I'm just pointing it out as possibility. If you read my posts you'll understand. But I will type it again. I believe, the IAF did drop bombs on targets, weather they killed some or not, they will NEVER provide proof for strategic reasons. If India proved to the Pakistani people that they killed Pakistani people beyond the LOC, the Pakistani military and civilian government/politicians which are infiltrated and supported by sympathizers for Kashmir, ie LeT, JuD etc, will respond escalating upwards. Because who is Pakistan going to drop bombs on India with their F-16s? The Indian military? The Hindu nationalist? None of these entities are known global terrorists. All we can do is either believe India's statement or deny them. I take a pinch of salt with it, but for Pakistan, I make sure I get the salt from Costco.
 

jatt

Junior Member
I believed what happened was they were unabled to deploy the munitions on target for whatever reason and had to drop them off clear of civilians to get the heck out of dodge before too much heat comes along.
Again, that could also be true. But in that case, again Pakistan would not have retaliated on such a scale. Perhaps the buildings and shacks were empty. We do know the Indians were using Spice 2000 which was designed to kill enemy combatants within the building while leaving the surrounding structures standing. But I like to use technical details only likily as they are overshadowed by BIG pictures. It is also noted, that Pakistan has NOT given full coverage to the media in the general area. If theres one thing Pakistan has been good at doing, its hiding bodies (both civilian and uniformed) and death tolls. I've noticed this trend, since the war on terror. The moment Pakistan ie Musharaff moved against the Taliban, the Taliban split into good and bad taliban. Pakistan has become a breeding ground of sorts for terrorists. They still very much have the anti India terrorists and still very much patriots. After the 2001 Parliament attack on Delhi Musharaff moved against the LeT, but LeT's guys were called patriots by the Pakistani military. Musharraf had 2 attempts at his life during his time both by LeT and Kashmiri sympathizers. But I digress. Point being, if another terrorists attack hits the Indian military, how will they respond? Because the voices in Delhi are saying enough is enough. Regardless of how many Pakistani fingers were involved, the military wants to meet Pakistan on its terms, which is likely why Modi was MUTE until the pilots capture. This just means the militants can decide what happens next if India reacts within its patterns.
 

ougoah

Captain
Registered Member
This thread is just o_O

Can the Indian posters try to refrain from lashing out at members because of their bruised egos? i.e stop calling Pakistani and Chinese members names and stop trying to pretend you're older and somehow more informed than other members who are totally unknown to you. Sorry there's just no convincing evidence out there for anyone here to make any calls on the big claims being thrown around. Just cool it both Pakistani and Indian members. If you want to believe in your own fairytales about F-16s or Su-30MKIs, please enjoy those dreams in private. Posting them up online only embarrasses you to all non involved groups. It's really become quite pathetic now.
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
First off your not apologizing for anything unless your saying you don't comprehend what i'm saying which could be possible but then calling incoherent nonsense with out logic just undermined any apology you were trying to make. Or perhaps you were trying to be polite because I did not give too much of an effort in my posting because the post wasn't to your "standards". I am though having a difficult time trying to put events into a logical story, but perhaps an professional writer will do it better months or years down the road. Regardless, thats not much of apology.
1. It is not a complete fact. More policy and opinion. FACT: India violated Pakistani territory and airspace. Thats a fact. Retaliation is policy depended on the nation not a fact and not always true. For instance, during Bush and Obama days, Pakistan and its civilians plus terrorists America identified were sent to hell with precision drone strikes resulting in civilian casualties sometime women and children, a fact denied by the Pakistani military and government for years until near or after OBL raid which many Pakistani civilians still deny.
Now you see number 2 is fact mostly according to India their attempt is foiled. I however like to believe that munitions had their fuzes disabled which is what the DGISPR said but thats still an act of war. Luckily, India's policy is decided by a civilian government and not a machine like the Indian military.
3 is NOT much FACT and mostly opinion, mostly yours and highly childish. Pakistan did return this pilot but I don't think Pakistanis felt sorry for him. Peace gesture sure, because with out the pilot, the Indian military could have retaliated heavily for 1 pilot because as I've mentioned before, targeting military installations is an act of war, and shooting BVR missiles into Indian airspace may also be considered and act of war if not aggression by upping the ROE. The mentioned pilot also didn't praise Pakistan, he praised the commander, captian of the pakistani military that picked him up and saved him from the MOB that would have killed him or at least cause serious injury and they did attack him even after apprehending him and for all we know he may or may not have of had a gun pointed at his head. So much love. That being said, the Indian side will follow up with the US on the issue of the F-16 use in aggressive attacks on India, its what the diplomats get paid to do. India is after all a big nation with a big bureaucracy that can do more than one thing, and reducing the strength of the Pakistani military is always high on the agenda long before this incident and will remain so, because Pakistan and India have fought 3 and half wars in less than a century each time Pakistan being armed by the United States as a major Non Nato Ally. So you want to blame them for this because its childish and what losers do? As for the terrorists, there may be damning evidence or not but that would be the opinion of Pakistan. Thats what India is trying to change, and this story is NOT only being sold to America but the global community and is working so far because NOT 1 nation condemned or blinked when India violated Pakistans sovereignty in pretext of justice. And dare I say, you sound like you know these chumps in LeT personally. But I could have sworn you where Chinese.
FYI just because you use numbers or bullet points doesn't make your argument anymore compelling. Visually it looks better, but if there isn't critical thinking behind it, its a wasted effort.
Impunity may be strong word but more or less is what India got. I didn't lose a jet, India did, my jets fine parked in front of the landing strip, still making sorties, but i digress. So let me start off by saying AGAIN, India violated Pakistani sovereignty, not done since 1971 which was a full scale war. During the strikes, Pakistan DID NOT SHOOT at or down any Indian aircraft AFAIK. Pakistan "RESPONDED" the day after by doing the same resulting in the DOGFIGHT mentioned with shots being fired by PAF with BVR missiles and the lone Indian Mig-21 that was shot down. One thing to NOTE; Pakistan did not shoot at Indian planes when they performed the "strike", they shot back AFTER being CHASED by IAF for their strikes on military installations. Also IMPORTANT to NOTE the Pakistani MEA did NOT mention retaliation or Indian strikes as the excuse for their adventure into the Indian side. Of course I'll leave it up to you as to why they didn't mention any excuse for violating Indian airspace. But case in point, your absolutely right. IMPUNITY was too large a word for Indian action and reaction. India is not America but still managed to get away with it with only 1 lose. The pilot. To your other point of proof of dead bodies; India will never show the proof, and I'd like to believe it is because it gives a level of deniability to the Pakistani military and government. Had India provided PROOF (with DEAD bodies), Pakistani military would have been that much more pressured to actually target India with real bombs and say it was RETALIATION ultimately leading up the escalation ladder. The same thing was done earlier. Because Pakistan CAN and HAVE hid bodies of their own civilians in crossfire with out little accountability. But please explain to me, WHY PAF reaction was so GREAT in the aftermath of the strikes in Pakistan? Could they not have fabricated a story, and say they chased Indians out and won the day? Why the need to risk war? It just raises more questions YOU DON"T THINK? Also, I don't shoot into the sky, because...you know gravity. And you will end up providing proof, you didn't shoot up into the sky in crowded city. But thats not ridiculous. What is ridiculous is you expect me to believe your logic or your argument about the f-16. I honestly don't care too much about the F-16. Thats more of debate that needs to be in the aviation dept. being scrutinized by the bird brains who find it relevant. I'm not going to try and convince you. I only picked with you because your posts a ridiculous and full....contemptuous BS. Full stop. As if you know what your talking about. Because I provided my 2 cents and opinion and like fox I hope its fair balanced leading people to ask more questions and narratives. What you provided was ignorant boarding on illiterate, passing it off as informative educational FACT than actual substance. You are NOT some one that understands the deep modern history of South Asia. I for one think you 0pinon is based on watching select Indian television clips to form you mindless opinion as if the India state is in whole represented by the media.

Again read my last part. India is NOT the CCP. The India media talks about everything from Modis fruity attire to soldiers attire. They don't have clear agenda like CCTV. If you were really serious about what you type, perhaps you would have posted something on ROE, or PAF's intention on tactical level and equipment being operated, instead you offer nothing of the sort.

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OK I see it is an English problem. There was clearly no apology to you and that "sorry" was used in a sarcastic tone, like, "I'm sorry you're an idiot, but...".

Anyway, your sins are compounded. Not only is your writing getting even more jumbled and difficult to discern, you are confusing people with each other. Kwiagongin is a different person from me, and you are writing responses to his comments in your reply to me.

Would it kill you to slightly organize your thoughts before convulsing over the keyboard in huge nonsensical vomiting rants? Making your writing too annoying to read isn't winning at debate.

From what I did pick out, I can reply:
1. You tried to obfuscate a simple matter, which is that India struck into Pakistan with no damage so Pakistan did the same. You are trying to make it sound like Pakistan would have just let it go unless India did damage and there is clearly no logic in the world for that. You do something to someone, he does the same back to you. Very simple.
2. My "opinion" is that the captured Indian actually went on live air saying that Pakistanis were very very kind and professional and that their tea is "fantastic." Your opinion, unsupported by any evidence yet again, is that he had a gun to his head. Pathetic. And no, Pakistan didn't have to return anybody except for their own good will. Retaliate heavily? That's a joke. Pakistan's not scared of Indian retaliation or they wouldn't have done this in the first place. The last time India "retaliated" it lost a jet and a pilot. So please, retaliate again.
3. No evidence of terrorists is no evidence. No evidence does not become "there may or may not be evidence." Condemn India? Why? It killed no one, got its own jet shot down, pilot lost, and country humiliated. Given those circumstances, it likely learned its lesson in the short term. Why put salt to the injury? Nobody condemned Pakistan for dropping bombs into India then shooting down its responders either, which would be a huge provocation have India not went illegally into Pakistan the day before.
4. I use numbers and bullets to organize my points, as does everyone else. That you write incoherent walls of textual diarrhea and don't understand why other people organize their thoughts reflects very poorly on your academic capacity. I recommend you also number and/or bullet your points but the last time you tried, you went from 1 to 3, then lost count so I see you're not quite there yet...
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Continued.....

5. So impunity is actually the antonym of whatever word you should be using because having a jet shot down and pilot captured by a neighbor is an ugliness that generally does not occur outside of the middle east. I know Pakistan did not immediately respond; most countries would not have an immediate response or be ready for a neighbor suddenly bombing an empty forest on the edge of its territory. Pakistan baited India the next day and humiliated the IAF to the extent that the Indian Western Marshall was fired in hours. And you use "impunity?" Let's put it this way: if you tried to steal from your neighbor, got nothing but he saw you on video sneaking around his back yard and the next day, he baited you back and cut off your finger, and you say that means that you can take from your neighbor with "impunity," then you can use it here too in the same application.
6. If you don't have dead bodies (not even satellite images of dead bodies) and you don't have proof you killed anyone, then you have provided no reason for anyone to believe you, which is why no country believes India's claim that it kill terrorists. You have a habit of making up fanciful reasons for why India doesn't have evidence when once again, no evidence is no evidence. I can make up imaginary situations a bucket a minute for why we have no evidence but actually Pakistan shot down 50 IAF jets but at the end of the day, no evidence is no evidence. No fairy tales will be accepted in their place.
7. Once again, Pakistan's reaction was not heavy at all; it was perfectly proportional. Reread 1. Maybe if another country bombs India and deals no damage, you think India should just make up stories to avoid conflict but other countries don't work like that. You invaded my territory and dropped bombs, I do the same to you. If there is war, there is war. Nobody is scared of India. But if there is peace, it's not because you can bomb my territory and I have to back down. That's the mentality that you should understand.
8. My points on the F-16 are the same as yours on the MKI so take it or leave it but they're not going to be different.
9. If I'm ridiculous, then how come all the Chinese, Pakastani, American, and European posters on this forum agree with me and nobody agrees with you? Sometimes you have to look at your surroundings. If everyone is driving in the opposite direction from you, you are probably the one driving the wrong way. Crazy people don't think about that.
10. Very funny how you write nonsensical text walls in broken English and call me illiterate. This is obviously the quality of your writing, thinking, and analysis.

PS. I forgot to ask you this, but in your last post, you said that you likely could not learn from someone as young as me. Aside from the abject stupidity of believing that old people cannot learn from young people, why did you bring up age? How old am I? Do you know or is this another instance of you running your mouth about things you don't understand as a strategy to cover up your broken and defeated arguments?
 

Mohsin77

Junior Member
Registered Member
Luckily, India's policy is decided by a civilian government and not a machine like the Indian military.
You should really ponder on this... All the propaganda and lies that have come out of this episode, were all led by your civilian leadership, and peddled by your 'independent' media. No one forced them with a gun to their head, it wasn't some dictator... That is what should really scare you.

By the way, last weekend I was talking to a person who lived in the Balakot area. I asked him if there really was a "training camp" in that location. He told me there is "nothing there" anymore. Many years ago, there used to be a training camp, but it was closed down. Because Pakistan no longer trains militants to send to Kashmir like we keep telling your government. Reuters went all over that area and inspected it and confirmed there was no "training camp" in that location. And still, your media channels like Times Now are constantly telling you lies about how successful you were in destroying a camp that doesn't even exist, with bombs that didn't even hit the target.

Also, he told me that close to that location from where the bombs struck, is a cadet college for the Army's children. Do you have any idea what would've happened if in this ridiculous attack, your IAF accidentally hit that college and killed our Army's children? We responded so harshly for a few killed trees, and a dead crow. What do you think we would've done if you had fragged a college full of kids?! It would've started the first war between two nuclear powers! That is how stupid your "civilian government's" actions were. And all because your prime minister (who is already responsible for a genocide in Gujarat) wanted another win for his rabid electorate before the coming elections...
 
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jatt

Junior Member
You should really ponder on this... All the propaganda and lies that have come out of this episode, were all led by your civilian leadership, and peddled by your 'independent' media. No one forced them with a gun to their head, it wasn't some dictator... That is what should really scare you.
The affect the national media has on the Indians in general is pretty low compared to local regional whats up news. The propaganda machine in India is not note worthy. There is no brigade in India for propaganda or even intelligence with a large budget. Media is a significant but still small in comparison of other methods used to control the masses in India. 1/3 the nation of India doesn't read, even more watch bollywood instead of national news channels. This in comparison with Pakistan that has how many hundreds of news channels? Point being the propaganda machines in India are controlled by multiple parties that includes politicians usually busy flinging feces at one another. Also calling it lies with certainty just means you buy your side with out exception, lies they maybe but the other side isn't full of it? For the record that doesn't scare me. What does concern me is the use of non state actors that can decide foreign policy and hold nation states hostage. Thats dangerous.
By the way, last weekend I was talking to a person who lived in the Balakot area. I asked him if there really was a "training camp" in that location. He told me there is "nothing there" anymore. Many years ago, there used to be a training camp, but it was closed down. Because Pakistan no longer trains militants to send to Kashmir like we keep telling your government. Reuters went all over that area and inspected it and confirmed there was no "training camp" in that location. And still, your media channels like Times Now are constantly telling you lies about how successful you were in destroying a camp that doesn't even exist, with bombs that didn't even hit the target.
You maybe right. But this just proves how involved Pakistani army and ISI was in Kashmir and India. It would be hard to to shut down this massive system setup in the 80 through out the 90's. The kashmir cause is emotionally charged. I don't need to be pakistani to know that. South Asia is emotionally charged. That being said, it doesn't mean people, from the other side were not involved or innocent. Its not a certain thing just like causalities in the strikes. Because even you have to admit, Pakistan has hidden bodies and covered up news. No reason to believe they did not do the same. So with that in mind, were these training camps shut down during Musharraf? what year? This question interest me. It was during Musharraf's reign that the Kashmir policy was reviewed heavily. During his rule, Musharraf with MMS opened back channels because these militants didn't like what was happening in the peace process openly.
Also, he told me that close to that location from where the bombs struck, is a cadet college for the Army's children. Do you have any idea what would've happened if in this ridiculous attack, your IAF accidentally hit that college and killed our Army's children? We responded so harshly for a few killed trees, and a dead crow. What do you think we would've done if you had fragged a college full of kids?! It would've started the first war between two nuclear powers! That is how stupid your "civilian government's" actions were. And all because your prime minister (who is already responsible for a genocide in Gujarat) wanted another win for his rabid electorate before the coming elections...
Perhaps that was a deliberate message. We know highly likely that extremist elements have influence within ISI Army and Imran Khan. This is why certain people can't go to jail. The state is nearly hijacked by the same people they tried to exploit. thats one probable reason. Remember the lal masjid? Right after Mumbai attacks. The Indian side will return favors in kind and they don't need to Hindus to do it in Pakistan. NWFP is breeding ground with little state control and influence or at least was. I imagine it would take decades to reverse the situation.
 
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