2019 India-Pakistani border clash

Biscuits said:

Is that picture of a crash site with an obvious 2-engine fighter not enough? Or the reports of two parachutes?

Pakistan has a reason to avoid talking, they had a pilot in military hospital, he probably passed away. They don’t want India to accuse them of killing him or deal with the escalation of killing an Indian citizen. India doesn’t want to talk either to avoid embarrassment.

Click to expand...

No ... either i remomber only a wrong image, but IMO no clearly twin-engined type was posted.

Biscuits said:

Is that picture of a crash site with an obvious 2-engine fighter not enough? Or the reports of two parachutes?

Pakistan has a reason to avoid talking, they had a pilot in military hospital, he probably passed away. They don’t want India to accuse them of killing him or deal with the escalation of killing an Indian citizen. India doesn’t want to talk either to avoid embarrassment.

Click to expand...

Which photo of a twin-engined fighter? Could you post it? There have been too many images being labeled as "evidence" but most of them turned out to be old photos from unrelated events.

Given the massive amount of BS emanating from both sides, "reports" and "claims" do not cut it anymore.

asif iqbal said:

Indian navy is on the move

Our Southern flank is weak, air force and army can handle the rest in the North/East

China should send its carrier strike group to Bay of Bengal to the split the Indian defences in half

Otherwise Pakistan should not rule out the use of nuclear attack on the Indian navy

Pakistan navy doesnt have its SSK and FFG fleet up to its full strength yet, very vulnerable

Click to expand...

or send a couple of 052D and 1 or 2 SSN 093 series

SinoSoldier said:

Which photo of a twin-engined fighter? Could you post it? There have been too many images being labeled as "evidence" but most of them turned out to be old photos from unrelated events.

Given the massive amount of BS emanating from both sides, "reports" and "claims" do not cut it anymore.

Click to expand...

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/attachments/6bee3e71-e0ce-4704-bf2e-fc8bfe3bf9ea-jpeg.51197/
This one, though to my eye it looks just as much like a twin engined fighter wreck as any other wreck. Which is not saying much, some are pointing out how it looks like one but honestly I just dont see the connection here.
Is it a wreck ? Yes. But is it a twin engined wreck ? I have no idea. Then there is the problem about the 2 parachutes, we have only eye witness accounts to go on. With no video or still photos to back it up.

MastanKhan said:

View attachment 51206

Look behind the head of Abhi---another pilot with his hands in the air---

Click to expand...

That does not look like how one would signal a surrender, surrender postures have the arms at shoulder height rather than all the way up. Moreover (and this is particularly true for military personnel) the "correct" or "official" posture would be putting one's hands behind one's head.

Biscuits said:

Pakistan has a reason to avoid talking, they had a pilot in military hospital, he probably passed away. They don’t want India to accuse them of killing him or deal with the escalation of killing an Indian citizen. India doesn’t want to talk either to avoid embarrassment.

Click to expand...

That does not make any sense, at this point of time it would not make any difference for India whether it was 1 or 2 pilots that crashed in Pakistan, nor would Pakistan trying to cover up the death of one Indian pilot would help to lower the escalation anyway seeing that 40 Indian soldiers are already dead in the follow up to this incident. And lets not forget the earlier Pakistani air strike in Indian territory that would almost certainly caused casualties. And if it comes out later that it would have the opposite effect.
And sooner or later the family of the supposedly missing pilot is going to demand to know about his whereabouts.

Biscuits said:

Is that picture of a crash site with an obvious 2-engine fighter not enough? Or the reports of two parachutes?

Pakistan has a reason to avoid talking, they had a pilot in military hospital, he probably passed away. They don’t want India to accuse them of killing him or deal with the escalation of killing an Indian citizen. India doesn’t want to talk either to avoid embarrassment.

Click to expand...

Could you repost that photo? Honestly not a single one looks like it shows a two engined fighter. And some photos were from other events in the past. I couldn't load the image in the one you suggested is a two engined fighter.

The wreck images that I've seen that were not Mi-17 were all of a Mig-21. It is easily identifiable by the airbrakes protrusions.

After reading Indian forums and looking at what they've presented as evidence (outside of the usual media murkiness and posturing), it does seem to suggest Pakistan shot down a single Mig-21 inside Pakistani territory and possibly another Mig-21 which ended up inside Indian territory. Mi-17 Indians claim as just a technical fault and Pakistan has not claimed shooting that one down. No Su-30MKI or any Su-30 or Mig-29 by either side and no evidence to suggest such speculations for now either. It could have happened owing to the claims that the captured pilot looks like someone in a past Su-30MKI documentary. This is total hearsay and I've looked at the clip and that guy could easily have been someone else. Another thing that goes towards lending credence to MKI claims is the fact that Indian sources have previously claimed that MKIs were conducting some patrol missions around the area and it would also make sense for them to escort other fighters, particularly outdated ones.

Of course China and every other nation with capable satellites know what really happened. So the guys who matter know what's what. All us little people are left with are imagination, ego, and speculation. The only thing I find interesting about this whole thing now is the discrepancy between Pakistani claim that no F-16s were used and no F-16 shot down and India's claim that one F-16 was shot down inside Pakistani held territory. Pakistan is completely denying this and India is denying any MKI being shot down. Seems like both sides are all about preserving face for their voters. We can expect zero truth from either party. Ironically Communist controlled Chinese media have in my experience always reported factually. They only avoid talking about certain things completely but every single media does this and western media is the king of avoiding certain conversations.

My theory is Pakistan is saying JF-17 shot down two fighters even if no JF-17 was used in that engagement. This is done just for obvious reasons and also to deny any use of F-16 in questionable "defense" since the US only allows PAF F-16s to be used purely defensively. Then again JF-17 could definitely have been used while all F-16s were in hangars. It's just not smart to trust guys who have obvious conflict of interest in telling the truth.

Bohai bay is too far away

4500km from Bay of Bengal

Also need to transit Malacca Straits

CV-16 is out of position 4-5 days sailing

In 1999 kargil war China send 40 x F7PG with M11 missiles within 24 hours

Ammunition ships were docking at Karachi port 2 weeks after the stand off, now China Is strong

Either way if they don’t help, Pakistan can take Indians if they do it will make it easier for Pakistan

Beijing and Islamabad are talking

IL-78 tankers from Southern India have reached LOC

Looks like they will try and even the score today against PAF

Latest

Yesterday their chiefs of armed forced met Modi, Doval and Home Minister Rajnath Singh. Today they are meeting with Def. Minister they are not planning a picnic

Their graves will be in Pakistan

Can we pls stop flooding this forum with pointless jingoistic smack talk ?