09III/09IV (093/094) Nuclear Submarine Thread

HighGround

Junior Member
Registered Member
The Yasen-M lacks a pump-jet to start with and its basic design is not very recent either. The OK650 reactor lineage is old too. The design was originally for the Sierra. Electronics wise I have no idea as that stuff is mostly classified. Not a traditional Russian strong point though.
It seems like Russian are pretty decent integrators. Their main weakness is that they simply don't have a semiconductor manufacturing sector to any real appreciable degree.

But judging by last year's
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, they do put together very capable systems by using a hosh-pot of Western electronics. Should the Russian and Chinese defense sector see closer integration (which is probably the most ideal scenario for Russia), Russia could produce a lot of high-end capability without any need to rely on de-facto smuggling in Western components.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
It seems like Russian are pretty decent integrators. Their main weakness is that they simply don't have a semiconductor manufacturing sector to any real appreciable degree.

But judging by last year's
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, they do put together very capable systems by using a hosh-pot of Western electronics. Should the Russian and Chinese defense sector see closer integration (which is probably the most ideal scenario for Russia), Russia could produce a lot of high-end capability without any need to rely on de-facto smuggling in Western components.
More integration with China is win-win. Russia has assets that China cannot buy with any amount of money - experience, data and geography. Russia needs money and most of all, needs a place to spend its money on things more useful than oligarch yachts. That's where China comes in. Specifically with subs, Russian data and experience is invaluable, because that's the accumulation of 60+ years of operational expertise that represents millions of hours of labor.
 

sunnymaxi

Captain
Registered Member

Chinese scientists say new stealth tech for submarines can ‘cancel out’ US Navy sonar​


Sound-emitting tile made of costly rare earth elements can turn powerful US sonar tech against itself, Beijing researchers say

Low-frequency, high-decibel sound produced can cause enemy sonar operator to mistake the submarine for water, team says in paper


The lightweight, ‘active’ device developed by the Chinese team is based on giant magnetostrictive material technology. Credit: Beijing Institute of Technology
A research team in China says it has created a new coating device that could help submarines evade advanced enemy sonar by mimicking water.

The tile-like device can analyse enemy sonar frequency, and generate opposing sound waves to cause the sonar operator to mistake the submarine for water, the researchers said.

Low-frequency sounds produced by the tiles can reach an intensity of up to 147 decibels, which is louder than a rock concert and sufficient to “cancel out” some of the most powerful active sonars used by the US military or its allies, according to the team from the Beijing Institute of Technology.

A complete unit of the device is less than half the size and thickness of a brick, allowing engineers to stick them all over the hull of a submarine to tackle sonar beams from different directions.

“The submarine surface coating widely used by the world’s naval powers is the anechoic tile,” the researchers said in their paper published in Chinese-language peer-reviewed journal Acta Armamentarii last month.

These “passive” sound-absorbing tiles, made of rubber or synthetic polymer, are usually less than 7 centimetres (2.8 inches) thick, and work best against sonar signals in a higher frequency range with wavelengths shorter than their thickness.
But they may not be as effective against longer wavelengths, and therefore lower frequencies, as the two are inversely proportional.

“The frequency of modern active sonars is getting lower and lower, with wavelengths exceeding one metre,” lead researcher Wang Wenjie and his colleagues said in their paper.

“The passive coating can no longer meet the combat requirements of a quiet submarine, no matter how you change the material composition and structure of the tiles.”

The “active” tile developed by the Beijing Institute team is based on giant magnetostrictive material (GMM) technology, named after a phenomenon discovered by 19th century British physicist James Joule.

In 1842, Joule was the first to observe that some materials expand or shrink when placed near a magnet, in an effect known as “magnetostriction”.

For more than a century, the discovery was viewed as interesting but useless, because the magnet-induced changes were too small for any serious applications.

In the 1970s, scientists with the US Navy invented the alloy Terfenol-D, the first GMM that could convert magnetic force into mechanical energy – leading to visible changes in shape.

Due to its high power output and efficiency, Terfenol-D is used in key driving components for active sonars on many US warships, according to Wang’s team.

But the application of the technology remains limited, because manufacturing GMM requires a large amount of expensive and heavy rare earth elements – such as terbium and dysprosium – whose reserves are mostly concentrated in China.

Wang’s and his colleagues said their device could turn the US active sonar technology against itself.
The challenge was to pack all the components into a small format while maintaining high power output. Active acoustic stealth prototypes that came before were “tens of times bigger than ours,” the team said.

The researchers also spent a lot of time improving the device’s engineering design to make it suitable for quick installation, long-term operation and maintenance on submarines in deep oceans.

“The emission unit is lightweight, operable in a wide range of frequencies with high efficiency, and resistant to pressure,” the paper said.

While the team did not disclose the cost and rare earth composition of the giant magnetostrictive components of the device, it said the technology would “find broad application in cladding of active acoustic arrays on large-scale submarines”.

Some critical rare earth elements, including dysprosium, are in short supply due to the rapid growth of electric car production in China, according to recent Chinese media reports.

The lightweight, ‘active’ device developed by the Chinese team is based on giant magnetostrictive material technology. Credit: Beijing Institute of Technology
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member

Chinese scientists say new stealth tech for submarines can ‘cancel out’ US Navy sonar​


Sound-emitting tile made of costly rare earth elements can turn powerful US sonar tech against itself, Beijing researchers say

Low-frequency, high-decibel sound produced can cause enemy sonar operator to mistake the submarine for water, team says in paper


The lightweight, ‘active’ device developed by the Chinese team is based on giant magnetostrictive material technology. Credit: Beijing Institute of Technology
A research team in China says it has created a new coating device that could help submarines evade advanced enemy sonar by mimicking water.

The tile-like device can analyse enemy sonar frequency, and generate opposing sound waves to cause the sonar operator to mistake the submarine for water, the researchers said.

Low-frequency sounds produced by the tiles can reach an intensity of up to 147 decibels, which is louder than a rock concert and sufficient to “cancel out” some of the most powerful active sonars used by the US military or its allies, according to the team from the Beijing Institute of Technology.

A complete unit of the device is less than half the size and thickness of a brick, allowing engineers to stick them all over the hull of a submarine to tackle sonar beams from different directions.

“The submarine surface coating widely used by the world’s naval powers is the anechoic tile,” the researchers said in their paper published in Chinese-language peer-reviewed journal Acta Armamentarii last month.

These “passive” sound-absorbing tiles, made of rubber or synthetic polymer, are usually less than 7 centimetres (2.8 inches) thick, and work best against sonar signals in a higher frequency range with wavelengths shorter than their thickness.
But they may not be as effective against longer wavelengths, and therefore lower frequencies, as the two are inversely proportional.

“The frequency of modern active sonars is getting lower and lower, with wavelengths exceeding one metre,” lead researcher Wang Wenjie and his colleagues said in their paper.

“The passive coating can no longer meet the combat requirements of a quiet submarine, no matter how you change the material composition and structure of the tiles.”

The “active” tile developed by the Beijing Institute team is based on giant magnetostrictive material (GMM) technology, named after a phenomenon discovered by 19th century British physicist James Joule.

In 1842, Joule was the first to observe that some materials expand or shrink when placed near a magnet, in an effect known as “magnetostriction”.

For more than a century, the discovery was viewed as interesting but useless, because the magnet-induced changes were too small for any serious applications.

In the 1970s, scientists with the US Navy invented the alloy Terfenol-D, the first GMM that could convert magnetic force into mechanical energy – leading to visible changes in shape.

Due to its high power output and efficiency, Terfenol-D is used in key driving components for active sonars on many US warships, according to Wang’s team.

But the application of the technology remains limited, because manufacturing GMM requires a large amount of expensive and heavy rare earth elements – such as terbium and dysprosium – whose reserves are mostly concentrated in China.

Wang’s and his colleagues said their device could turn the US active sonar technology against itself.
The challenge was to pack all the components into a small format while maintaining high power output. Active acoustic stealth prototypes that came before were “tens of times bigger than ours,” the team said.

The researchers also spent a lot of time improving the device’s engineering design to make it suitable for quick installation, long-term operation and maintenance on submarines in deep oceans.

“The emission unit is lightweight, operable in a wide range of frequencies with high efficiency, and resistant to pressure,” the paper said.

While the team did not disclose the cost and rare earth composition of the giant magnetostrictive components of the device, it said the technology would “find broad application in cladding of active acoustic arrays on large-scale submarines”.

Some critical rare earth elements, including dysprosium, are in short supply due to the rapid growth of electric car production in China, according to recent Chinese media reports.

The lightweight, ‘active’ device developed by the Chinese team is based on giant magnetostrictive material technology. Credit: Beijing Institute of Technology

Makes sense to be working on ways to cancel out active LF TAS with tiling & hull shaping. Also makes even more sense to cancel out the noises caused by your submarine itself, which happens to be the biggest problem facing Chinese submarines right now.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member

Chinese scientists say new stealth tech for submarines can ‘cancel out’ US Navy sonar​


Sound-emitting tile made of costly rare earth elements can turn powerful US sonar tech against itself, Beijing researchers say

Low-frequency, high-decibel sound produced can cause enemy sonar operator to mistake the submarine for water, team says in paper


The lightweight, ‘active’ device developed by the Chinese team is based on giant magnetostrictive material technology. Credit: Beijing Institute of Technology
A research team in China says it has created a new coating device that could help submarines evade advanced enemy sonar by mimicking water.

The tile-like device can analyse enemy sonar frequency, and generate opposing sound waves to cause the sonar operator to mistake the submarine for water, the researchers said.

Low-frequency sounds produced by the tiles can reach an intensity of up to 147 decibels, which is louder than a rock concert and sufficient to “cancel out” some of the most powerful active sonars used by the US military or its allies, according to the team from the Beijing Institute of Technology.

A complete unit of the device is less than half the size and thickness of a brick, allowing engineers to stick them all over the hull of a submarine to tackle sonar beams from different directions.

“The submarine surface coating widely used by the world’s naval powers is the anechoic tile,” the researchers said in their paper published in Chinese-language peer-reviewed journal Acta Armamentarii last month.

These “passive” sound-absorbing tiles, made of rubber or synthetic polymer, are usually less than 7 centimetres (2.8 inches) thick, and work best against sonar signals in a higher frequency range with wavelengths shorter than their thickness.
But they may not be as effective against longer wavelengths, and therefore lower frequencies, as the two are inversely proportional.

“The frequency of modern active sonars is getting lower and lower, with wavelengths exceeding one metre,” lead researcher Wang Wenjie and his colleagues said in their paper.

“The passive coating can no longer meet the combat requirements of a quiet submarine, no matter how you change the material composition and structure of the tiles.”

The “active” tile developed by the Beijing Institute team is based on giant magnetostrictive material (GMM) technology, named after a phenomenon discovered by 19th century British physicist James Joule.

In 1842, Joule was the first to observe that some materials expand or shrink when placed near a magnet, in an effect known as “magnetostriction”.

For more than a century, the discovery was viewed as interesting but useless, because the magnet-induced changes were too small for any serious applications.

In the 1970s, scientists with the US Navy invented the alloy Terfenol-D, the first GMM that could convert magnetic force into mechanical energy – leading to visible changes in shape.

Due to its high power output and efficiency, Terfenol-D is used in key driving components for active sonars on many US warships, according to Wang’s team.

But the application of the technology remains limited, because manufacturing GMM requires a large amount of expensive and heavy rare earth elements – such as terbium and dysprosium – whose reserves are mostly concentrated in China.

Wang’s and his colleagues said their device could turn the US active sonar technology against itself.
The challenge was to pack all the components into a small format while maintaining high power output. Active acoustic stealth prototypes that came before were “tens of times bigger than ours,” the team said.

The researchers also spent a lot of time improving the device’s engineering design to make it suitable for quick installation, long-term operation and maintenance on submarines in deep oceans.

“The emission unit is lightweight, operable in a wide range of frequencies with high efficiency, and resistant to pressure,” the paper said.

While the team did not disclose the cost and rare earth composition of the giant magnetostrictive components of the device, it said the technology would “find broad application in cladding of active acoustic arrays on large-scale submarines”.

Some critical rare earth elements, including dysprosium, are in short supply due to the rapid growth of electric car production in China, according to recent Chinese media reports.

The lightweight, ‘active’ device developed by the Chinese team is based on giant magnetostrictive material technology. Credit: Beijing Institute of Technology

Bad quality SCMP article, and Stephen Chen as always exaggerating early stage research as if it has immediate applications.

Also, in future can you link to the article as well.
 

sunnymaxi

Captain
Registered Member
Makes sense to be working on ways to cancel out active LF TAS with tiling & hull shaping. Also makes even more sense to cancel out the noises caused by your submarine itself, which happens to be the biggest problem facing Chinese submarines right now.
i don't know much about submarine technologies.

just a simple question. will all these problems be eliminate with type 095 SSN induction ?
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
i don't know much about submarine technologies.

just a simple question. will all these problems be eliminate with type 095 SSN induction ?
095 should be a lot quieter, but a large number of 093B that's in the 688i noise level range will also be very useful. More advanced noise absorbers is always useful. But you know, there is always going to be some noise level from submarines. If they operate in an environment without that many sensors, advanced ones are very hard to detect. If they operate in an environment with a lot of sensors, even the best ones can be found and followed.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Makes sense to be working on ways to cancel out active LF TAS with tiling & hull shaping. Also makes even more sense to cancel out the noises caused by your submarine itself, which happens to be the biggest problem facing Chinese submarines right now.
This isn't even cutting edge tech, theoretically. Noise cancelling headphones work the same way. Applying this tech even internally is a game changer as it decouples noise reduction from submarine dimensions, allowing for unusual powerplant architectures, and most of all, allows retrofits of existing subs.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
It seems like Russian are pretty decent integrators. Their main weakness is that they simply don't have a semiconductor manufacturing sector to any real appreciable degree.

But judging by last year's
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, they do put together very capable systems by using a hosh-pot of Western electronics. Should the Russian and Chinese defense sector see closer integration (which is probably the most ideal scenario for Russia), Russia could produce a lot of high-end capability without any need to rely on de-facto smuggling in Western components.
Russia's problem has been poor management and small economic size for centuries. They have had a very good human capital for a long time. Post-1991 Russian migration to the USA benefited US tech corporations and laboratories a lot. This is why I am a lot more interested in Sino-Russian joint projects rather than tech transfers.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Russia's problem has been poor management and small economic size for centuries. They have had a very good human capital for a long time. Post-1991 Russian migration to the USA benefited US tech corporations and laboratories a lot. This is why I am a lot more interested in Sino-Russian joint projects rather than tech transfers.
unfortunately we might not really know. remember that space and new. clear is in the signed MoU between the 2 countries. these are also the most opaque sectors for knowing details.
 
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