075 LHD thread

tphuang

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Then just built secondary carriers(maybe even "aircraft cruisers" once again) that can serve as nuclei of ASW groups. China has everything in place for such a program. As a bonus - with enough hypersonics such a group may in principle tie down(or even put out of game) a full enemy CSG, striking well above its weight.

Just don't bring amphibs away.
Why would you spend money/resources on additional mini carriers, when that's what 075/076 already are. There are plenty of amphibious resources that 075 can be used for other purposes if they want to.

Why are you so against using 075 for more than just amphibious roles?
It's hard to combine sufficient airwing to feasibly do vertical maneuver (heavy transport helicopters+escort/attack helicopters on top) with the needed airwing for a proper ASW search. There shall be enough to have a ASW CAP for the amphibious group - but it's a defensive measure in the end.
Do you know what the range of these Chinese helicopters like Z-10 are? They have the longest ranged of helicopters of their class, because they are expected to sustain operations across the straits.
Even if LHDs are going to be used within straits(which i doubt, but it may very well be) - it's still better to concentrate them on doing their primary mission - landings and their support. Range always means much for traditional helicopters(they're just gas killers), the less the better. Range means tempo - helicopter deckload can bring only so much in one run. Range means life and death for the wounded helicopters carry back.
Aside from the long range of Chinese attack helicopter, it's actually pretty dumb to be using helicopters for landing missions in a heavily defended spot like Taiwan.
But there are other targets, where this aviation capability will be needed more. There is eastern coast of Taiwan. There are key islands in the South China sea, in western pacific, maybe even in Ryukyu chain, shall Japan enter the conflict.
They already control every island they need in SCS. Trying to take more islands is only going to turn more countries against them. Which western pacific island were you thinking of? Guam? That is a challenge. You need to secure the path to Guam before you should try anything that adventurous.

They don't need 075 for Ryuku. By the time they want to take one of the ryuku islands, all threatening military assets will be destroyed there.
Maybe - who knows - even some other...historically-well known islands and chokepoints. They won't be middle shall such a conflict happen. In fact i honestly doubt even 8 fully developed amphibious groups would be enough to cover basic needs, given the sheer immensity of the theater.
And right now we're talking about 3 ships in training, not even 3 independent groups...yet.
You are struggling to come up with scenarios, because there isn't any that's more important than helping with ASW missions while your carrier group and 094s are stationed around there.

Again, if they have amphibious missions that are not more than a few hundred km away, they can use 075 for that. But in the scenario we are discussion here. Every ASW helicopter is needed. They cannot get enough of them.

SSNs will be running around forever. You may mostly keep them in check(outside of threat envelope), but even reliably cleaning them out from the general area of operations is a stretch - and that is before we're taking into account large USUVs;
the concerns are SSNs, not unmanned vessels.
physically destroying enough SSNs at sea to forget about them is basically a no-go - just won't succeed(attempt to Pearl Harbor them will bring better results).
Your aim is local command of the seas, until and unless submarines can't prevent you from exploiting command of the seas - you've done your job well enough. If, on the other hand, assets which in principle are designed to be used to use the command of the seas to the fullest(and, in case of LHDs, cement it through establishment of new bases and deletion of enemy ones) - SSNs by their existence are doing more direct operational harm than they normally should hope to achieve.
In the only scenario that people should be thinking of, you are vastly over thinking where PLAN might need to use LHD.

I'm going to write something up on this, but the gist is PLAN is unlikely to attempt a landing for the first few weeks, but they need to ensure air/sea control during that time. So for these few weeks, are you just going to keep LHDs in the port and not use it? You have a great platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters. Why waste it?
 

Blitzo

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Why would you spend money/resources on additional mini carriers, when that's what 075/076 already are. There are plenty of amphibious resources that 075 can be used for other purposes if they want to.

Why are you so against using 075 for more than just amphibious roles?

Do you know what the range of these Chinese helicopters like Z-10 are? They have the longest ranged of helicopters of their class, because they are expected to sustain operations across the straits.

Aside from the long range of Chinese attack helicopter, it's actually pretty dumb to be using helicopters for landing missions in a heavily defended spot like Taiwan.

They already control every island they need in SCS. Trying to take more islands is only going to turn more countries against them. Which western pacific island were you thinking of? Guam? That is a challenge. You need to secure the path to Guam before you should try anything that adventurous.

They don't need 075 for Ryuku. By the time they want to take one of the ryuku islands, all threatening military assets will be destroyed there.

You are struggling to come up with scenarios, because there isn't any that's more important than helping with ASW missions while your carrier group and 094s are stationed around there.

Again, if they have amphibious missions that are not more than a few hundred km away, they can use 075 for that. But in the scenario we are discussion here. Every ASW helicopter is needed. They cannot get enough of them.


the concerns are SSNs, not unmanned vessels.

In the only scenario that people should be thinking of, you are vastly over thinking where PLAN might need to use LHD.

I'm going to write something up on this, but the gist is PLAN is unlikely to attempt a landing for the first few weeks, but they need to ensure air/sea control during that time. So for these few weeks, are you just going to keep LHDs in the port and not use it? You have a great platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters. Why waste it?

075s are really too slow and too suboptimized as a ASW carrier.

Yes, Z-20Fs can operate in the ASW role from 075s in general, but 075s are designed from the outset as an amphibious assault ship.



If a war happened that requires them to throw every asset and the kitchen sink into it, then sure, why not use 075s as a hub for ASW helicopters if there's nothing else that can fulfill the job. But they are very much suboptimal in that role if asked to do it.
 

Gloire_bb

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Why would you spend money/resources on additional mini carriers, when that's what 075/076 already are. There are plenty of amphibious resources that 075 can be used for other purposes if they want to.
Because 075 is needed elsewhere, and because they're bad at it.
Not designed for the role.
Compare it with, say Hyuga - armed, networked and capable of easily keeping up with a ASW TG, silenced no worse than any other ship in its group, equipped with sonars&countermeasures. Its aircraft&ammo handling is equipped to fully match the mission, too.

On the other hand is the ship which is literally from its hull shape onwards is designed in a very different direction (volume on multiple decks, huge facilities for marines, command, hospitals, and more, huge variety of ammo, fuel and spares for several different types of vehicles from different mediums. Hull shape is aimed at stability&ability to maintain position at zero speed even when the well deck is in use, and efficiently getting everything from the 1st sentence to the landing zone). Everything else - including, say, comms setup, armament and so on is just as different.
It's just a wrong, very wrong ship for the role.

I understand why people like to imagine LHDs as a sorta helicopter carriers which also land things. It's especially understandable when PLAN faces up to ~100 modern high-end sub-surface units.
But it's still complete opposite of truth. If you need an ASW carrier, and you can't have enough true carriers to take the role - build ASW carriers then.

They don't need 075 for Ryuku. By the time they want to take one of the ryuku islands, all threatening military assets will be destroyed there.
With several dozens or so ICBMs?
Otherwise, even if those are cleared somehow(which is simply optimistic - many of those islands are large enough to move&hide) - they can be simply reinforced again - and both Japan and USMC actively train to do just that. With new focus on mobile, dispersable and survivable ASMs there is only one way to reliably put enemy a2ads out - first, clear away enemy units, 2, place there your own.

And yes, if we're at it - Guam ultimately is also a target. That's just the nature of the theater. Your opponent aims for continental PRC in any case, feel free to threaten at least overseas territories.
You are struggling to come up with scenarios, because there isn't any that's more important than helping with ASW missions while your carrier group and 094s are stationed around there.
I struggle to find where i am struggling tbh.
If you need ASW - i.e. an ASW carrier - build one. They aren't terribly expensive, and can be readily made from the bits China already produces.
If you want to fight and win a naval war in westpac/indopac - use LHDs properly. Frankly speaking, it'll even help ASW more - as moving your perimeter out, among other things, also moves your basing options and your seabead sensor locations further out.
the concerns are SSNs, not unmanned vessels.
I assume the concern of ASW is the underwater threat in all forms, other than perhaps mines and swimmers. By the mid-late 2020s, large combat USVs are likely to become a very real part of it.
I'm going to write something up on this, but the gist is PLAN is unlikely to attempt a landing for the first few weeks, but they need to ensure air/sea control during that time. So for these few weeks, are you just going to keep LHDs in the port and not use it? You have a great platform that can carry a lot of ASW helicopters. Why waste it?
So to risk losing landing asset to a nuke right before the key landing that everything is about? Especially when focused on a landing that is quite unlikely to be disrupted by SSNs(don't think putting them into strait is a bright idea for US commander)?
Sounds...wrong.

Furthermore, If there is a need for additional ASW capability with nukes in context, and LHDs are somehow free -
well, it means China basically failed to anticipate US entry into war. Provided it is the case, in this scenario it's best to not think about ASW patrols, but rush like mad for key chokepoints and islands - before USMC will place its new "nodes"(MLRs) there.
Otherwise you'll simply find yourself bottled up - in a position of complete strategic (Maritime) loss - even before the Taiwan landing.

Don't do it. Doing the opposite (taking and/or verifiably threatening to take the key locations in the region -thus ensuring they at the very least remain neutral- before and while degrading the island) is the way.
Prevent to the opponent from getting any chance to interfere - maybe he won't indeed. But literally welcoming him to do it by taking a defensive stance and trying ASW patrols(where? against what?) is the way to nowhere.
Taking all the blame, giving strategic initiative to the opponent and putting out vulnerable key units for a first strike.
 

tphuang

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Because 075 is needed elsewhere, and because they're bad at it.
Not designed for the role.
Compare it with, say Hyuga - armed, networked and capable of easily keeping up with a ASW TG, silenced no worse than any other ship in its group, equipped with sonars&countermeasures. Its aircraft&ammo handling is equipped to fully match the mission, too.

On the other hand is the ship which is literally from its hull shape onwards is designed in a very different direction (volume on multiple decks, huge facilities for marines, command, hospitals, and more, huge variety of ammo, fuel and spares for several different types of vehicles from different mediums. Hull shape is aimed at stability&ability to maintain position at zero speed even when the well deck is in use, and efficiently getting everything from the 1st sentence to the landing zone). Everything else - including, say, comms setup, armament and so on is just as different.
It's just a wrong, very wrong ship for the role.
Again, it doesn't matter if it is designed for the role or not. When you have a situation where they need very single available helicopter then 075 will be used in that role.

While we are it, 056 and 054a are not ideal asw ships also, but they have to use them in that role.
I understand why people like to imagine LHDs as a sorta helicopter carriers which also land things. It's especially understandable when PLAN faces up to ~100 modern high-end sub-surface units.
But it's still complete opposite of truth. If you need an ASW carrier, and you can't have enough true carriers to take the role - build ASW carriers then.
They don't have time to build asw carriers. When are they going to build asw carrier? Have you looked at the geopolitical situation recently?

With several dozens or so ICBMs?
Otherwise, even if those are cleared somehow(which is simply optimistic - many of those islands are large enough to move&hide) - they can be simply reinforced again - and both Japan and USMC actively train to do just that. With new focus on mobile, dispersable and survivable ASMs there is only one way to reliably put enemy a2ads out - first, clear away enemy units, 2, place there your own.
China has the assets to make Japan and USMC not able to do that. I will write something on this on the Westpac strike threat.
And yes, if we're at it - Guam ultimately is also a target. That's just the nature of the theater. Your opponent aims for continental PRC in any case, feel free to threaten at least overseas territories.
And they will be able to knock it out and most likely keep it out of commission for pretty long duration. Occupying it is a whole different ball game because they have a long way to go and there isn't enough air cover to provide asw support.


I struggle to find where i am struggling tbh.
If you need ASW - i.e. an ASW carrier - build one. They aren't terribly expensive, and can be readily made from the bits China already produces.
If you want to fight and win a naval war in westpac/indopac - use LHDs properly. Frankly speaking, it'll even help ASW more - as moving your perimeter out, among other things, also moves your basing options and your seabead sensor locations further out.
They don't have time as I said above because a conflict could break out any moment. That's why they are building so many 052d and 054a right now.
I assume the concern of ASW is the underwater threat in all forms, other than perhaps mines and swimmers. By the mid-late 2020s, large combat USVs are likely to become a very real part of it.
That's nothing compared to ssn threat.

So to risk losing landing asset to a nuke right before the key landing that everything is about? Especially when focused on a landing that is quite unlikely to be disrupted by SSNs(don't think putting them into strait is a bright idea for US commander)?
Sounds...wrong.
Or you don't provide 10 additional helicopters when you could and loose a carrier or 2 055s.
Furthermore, If there is a need for additional ASW capability with nukes in context, and LHDs are somehow free -
well, it means China basically failed to anticipate US entry into war. Provided it is the case, in this scenario it's best to not think about ASW patrols, but rush like mad for key chokepoints and islands - before USMC will place its new "nodes"(MLRs) there.
Otherwise you'll simply find yourself bottled up - in a position of complete strategic (Maritime) loss - even before the Taiwan landing.
I have no idea what you are talking about. They have 2 positions they need to be able to choke off. South china sea and east of Taiwan. They need to keep the surface fleet that guard these positions safe. Having additional asw helicopters as part of a large group of surface ships will keep every ship safer.
Don't do it. Doing the opposite (taking and/or verifiably threatening to take the key locations in the region -thus ensuring they at the very least remain neutral- before and while degrading the island) is the way.
Prevent to the opponent from getting any chance to interfere - maybe he won't indeed. But literally welcoming him to do it by taking a defensive stance and trying ASW patrols(where? against what?) is the way to nowhere.
Taking all the blame, giving strategic initiative to the opponent and putting out vulnerable key units for a first strike.
Who told you they are doing this just as a defensive stance? The fleet east of Taiwan will be able to launch a lot of missiles toward Guam. They will be using their missiles to attack all the appropriate bases around Japan. You need a fleet in scs and east of Taiwan to choke off flow of goods to Japan and Taiwan from west and south. Jmsdf will be forced to come at that fleet with everything it has left.
 

lcloo

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There is nothing wrong to have a ASW carrier, but it won'r be type 075 ,type 076 or any of the type 07X class because type 07X class ships are built and designed for amphibious warfare.

ASW ship would have new class designation, may be type 08X, or type 01X or whatever new class designation that PLA would come out with.

Type 075 and all type 07X class ships are primary built for amphibious assault roles, though they can be assigned other secondary roles with various types of helicopters and UAV on board.
 

Gloire_bb

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Again, it doesn't matter if it is designed for the role or not. When you have a situation where they need very single available helicopter then 075 will be used in that role.

While we are it, 056 and 054a are not ideal asw ships also, but they have to use them in that role.
056 and 054a are only not ideal in the sense that there is ever-moving technological progress, and restrictions of doing proactive ASW by surface ships in general.
Otherwise they're pretty close to the golden standard - and they do everything contemporary level of Chinese industry could provide them at the given time.

075 is bad enough for this to just not do it, unless the situation is dire, or unless the whole campaign is won(lost?) and you have nothing else to do with them in the foreseeable future.
When you're preparing for major amphibious assaults(even if you don't have to do them right now) - the situation is the opposite - you need to keep those for imminent use, or risk the whole major operation in a minor job where they will quite likely be lost. Not only them, but
They don't have time to build asw carriers. When are they going to build asw carrier? Have you looked at the geopolitical situation recently?
If you don't have time and enough units - then even more you keep LHDs for exclusively LHD work. Ultimately, China has more than enough surface ASW units, and nearby seas are covered reasonably well with maritime aviation&helicopters working from shore&island bases. If you want go forward - move forward those helicopter bases, capture chokepoints = prepare to do landings.

You are right now limited to just 2-3 complete amphibious groups - your main offensive power - in an ideal situation. wasting them for ASW is beyond horrible.
And they will be able to knock it out and most likely keep it out of commission for pretty long duration. Occupying it is a whole different ball game because they have a long way to go and there isn't enough air cover to provide asw support.
I am highly sceptical of using medium-range missiles as a long-term suppression tool. Neither it does work against an adapting opponent with a sliver of brains, nor there is enough of those missiles to use them as howitzer shells. Even in the best case scenario it'll shut down Guam as an air/naval base, but not as an MRBM base.

Major landing effort will obviously include its own concentrated ASW screen(to which 075s may indeed contribute), so the point is moot here.
Or you don't provide 10 additional helicopters when you could and loose a carrier or 2 055s.
I frankly struggle to draw a tactical picture where slow&noisy TG with 10 more helicopters(~2-3 in the air) is less vulnerable than the fast
one. Especially against nuclear submarines, which now can relatively freely maneuver around at silent speeds.
But others, too - every knot down is literally a double-digit increase in the chance that conventional subs will be able to get to intercept.

More helicopters(especially heavy) increase the effectiveness(depth, front) of search, sure, but not in the way you imply.
Basically - you'll increase the volume of search, but at the same time be slow enough&loud enough for subs to react in time - and either evade, or attempt to sneak through. Key opponents(American SSNs and Japanese SSKs) are readily capable of either.
That's nothing compared to ssn threat.
You're wrong. There is nothing more dangerous than a threat underestimated.
And, vise versa, SSNs shall be taken at that they are, nothing more, nothing less. No need to give them a mystical aura of destruction, they're already dangerous enough. But large USUVs are (potentially ofc) far less detectable(all physical fields substantially lower than even SSK) and can potentially go into places traditional ASW wouldn't even consider as penetrable.
Or you don't provide 10 additional helicopters when you could and loose a carrier or 2 055s.
As was written above - when we're talking about losing something - you're far more likely to lose something by crippling ASW TG with an unsuitable unit. additional helicopters add to other metrics of ASW. That's just the nature of things.
This is why if you're so serious about ASW - start laying down ASW carriers, ASAP.
I have no idea what you are talking about. They have 2 positions they need to be able to choke off. South china sea and east of Taiwan. They need to keep the surface fleet that guard these positions safe. Having additional asw helicopters as part of a large group of surface ships will keep every ship safer.
Ok, now we got somewhere, two locations.
So, if you don't touch straits(the actual chokepoints) and try to do ASW in SCS instead - you don't need an 075 there, you have bases with MPAs(and helicopters). Those will give you more sorties regardless, and for self-defense, as mentioned earlier, it's safe to leave 075 alone than to rely on its helicopters trying to be frigates.
I'd frankly suggest though that control over major shipping straits of Malay barrier, Philippines and Taiwan is a by far the better option.
Thus instead of trying to catch subs within a whole sea, you better ensure that all relevant states won't be cooperating with your opponent(strict adherence to neutrality is enough actually - but it should be verified and ensured that no "whoops Iceland" will happen), and close the straits against unnecessary sneaky trespassers. Twice so because US very openly prepares to do just the opposite - in the worst case you'll have to... well.

WestPAC - even more so, the fleet here is exposed to anything up to major fleet action, and subs operate in a deep sea. Best place for 075, if for some reason it's still there, is to be sent away with other support vessels - and pray. In either case, the very presence of a key forced entry asset here w/o aim for attack(or at least pretending to attack) is a major mistake.
Who told you they are doing this just as a defensive stance? The fleet east of Taiwan will be able to launch a lot of missiles toward Guam. They will be using their missiles to attack all the appropriate bases around Japan. You need a fleet in scs and east of Taiwan to choke off flow of goods to Japan and Taiwan from west and south. Jmsdf will be forced to come at that fleet with everything it has left.
lots of missiles isn't an attack stance. It's a standoff porcupine approach.
Fleet won't be able to choke supply of goods to Japan(if we're at war with Japan - what's the problem with Ryukyus btw?) just by staying east of Taiwan.
(1)Japan has its eastern(cross-Pacific) supply route, too - the major one in fact. If you want to bring Japan to its knees - well, you will need to look there.
(2)Fleet can't stay there for long enough when Taiwan is not captured - and when(if) it is - it isn't needed at all, because Tainan-based aircraft will do the job better than any fleet - simply because land airbase can stay in place indefinitely.
(3)Fleet east of Taiwan can't be focused on blockade and especially ASW sweeps(ASW sweeps around what? in front of what? sweeping open empty ocean, where the only thing for SSNs to attack is you in the first place?). It's indeed a challenge to JMASDF or USN to fight a Mahanian action. Assuming your bait is strong enough(Taiwan invasion) - it'll happen, but it's a completely different topic.
 

tphuang

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056 and 054a are only not ideal in the sense that there is ever-moving technological progress, and restrictions of doing proactive ASW by surface ships in general.
Otherwise they're pretty close to the golden standard - and they do everything contemporary level of Chinese industry could provide them at the given time.
They are really not, they suffer through speed and high noise issues and they don't have hangar space large enough to carry Z20. The fact is PLAN has what it has and it needs to use what it has available on its hands.

If you don't have time and enough units - then even more you keep LHDs for exclusively LHD work. Ultimately, China has more than enough surface ASW units, and nearby seas are covered reasonably well with maritime aviation&helicopters working from shore&island bases. If you want go forward - move forward those helicopter bases, capture chokepoints = prepare to do landings.
This makes even less sense. So by your logic, if China has fewer landing platforms, then they should hamstrung themselves even more by not using all the landing platforms they have. What a great logic.

Move forward helicopter bases? Are they going to magically build an island 500 km to the east of Fujian and put a helicopter base there?
You are right now limited to just 2-3 complete amphibious groups - your main offensive power - in an ideal situation. wasting them for ASW is beyond horrible.
They are not getting wasted. It's a waste to keep them in the port and do nothing.

I am highly sceptical of using medium-range missiles as a long-term suppression tool. Neither it does work against an adapting opponent with a sliver of brains, nor there is enough of those missiles to use them as howitzer shells. Even in the best case scenario it'll shut down Guam as an air/naval base, but not as an MRBM base.
I have no idea what you are talking about. When did Guam become a MRBM base? lol.

This has been widely discussed on PLA strike strategies in westpac HIC (first wave, sustained, other). PLA definitely has enough missiles amongst DF-26 and LACMs to shutdown Guam initially. And, it has the ability to continue to lob LACMs on there to keep it down for a period of time. Depending on the availability of H20 and how far a Chinese carrier group can safely move toward Guam, it may be able to keep Guam offline for many months.
Major landing effort will obviously include its own concentrated ASW screen(to which 075s may indeed contribute), so the point is moot here.
They don't need a 075 to land somewhere in the Ryukus. More importantly, that would only be a small operation in a much longer war. Do you just intend to keep 075s in the port 90% of time?
I frankly struggle to draw a tactical picture where slow&noisy TG with 10 more helicopters(~2-3 in the air) is less vulnerable than the fast
one. Especially against nuclear submarines, which now can relatively freely maneuver around at silent speeds.
But others, too - every knot down is literally a double-digit increase in the chance that conventional subs will be able to get to intercept.
You are struggling to see why a large fleet that's situated in the strategic position East of Taiwan might want 10 additional helicopters to help search of submarines? Are you kidding me? Why not get rid of all helicopters? Why even perform ASW?

More helicopters(especially heavy) increase the effectiveness(depth, front) of search, sure, but not in the way you imply.
Basically - you'll increase the volume of search, but at the same time be slow enough&loud enough for subs to react in time - and either evade, or attempt to sneak through. Key opponents(American SSNs and Japanese SSKs) are readily capable of either.
hmm, so by your logic. Because search helicopters make noise, so let's just not have search helicopters? Let's go down to 0. Have no aerial support, just rely on those noisy diesel power surface ships you have and see how well things go.

China uses underwater sensors, surface warships and aerial platforms. SURTRASS and underwater sensors to cue up helicopters/MPAs. The more helicopters you have, the quicker you can find quiet subs after getting cued up. At the same time, you are also more likely to pick up when those very quiet diesel submarines snorkel for ventilation. China's entire play when it comes to ASW is to crowd nearby waters with as many sensors as it can.

You're wrong. There is nothing more dangerous than a threat underestimated.
And, vise versa, SSNs shall be taken at that they are, nothing more, nothing less. No need to give them a mystical aura of destruction, they're already dangerous enough. But large USUVs are (potentially ofc) far less detectable(all physical fields substantially lower than even SSK) and can potentially go into places traditional ASW wouldn't even consider as penetrable.
SSNs have unlimited endurance. SSKs and large AUV/UUVs do not. Huge difference. China has it's own very large fleet of AUV/UUVs and they provide additional sensors to help track enemy submarines.

As was written above - when we're talking about losing something - you're far more likely to lose something by crippling ASW TG with an unsuitable unit. additional helicopters add to other metrics of ASW. That's just the nature of things.
This is why if you're so serious about ASW - start laying down ASW carriers, ASAP.
They are clearly not laying down ASW carriers. So, they are going to use what they have.

This is the first time I have seen "having more ASW helicopters" = bad.

So, if you don't touch straits(the actual chokepoints) and try to do ASW in SCS instead - you don't need an 075 there, you have bases with MPAs(and helicopters). Those will give you more sorties regardless, and for self-defense, as mentioned earlier, it's safe to leave 075 alone than to rely on its helicopters trying to be frigates.
I'd frankly suggest though that control over major shipping straits of Malay barrier, Philippines and Taiwan is a by far the better option.
Thus instead of trying to catch subs within a whole sea, you better ensure that all relevant states won't be cooperating with your opponent(strict adherence to neutrality is enough actually - but it should be verified and ensured that no "whoops Iceland" will happen), and close the straits against unnecessary sneaky trespassers. Twice so because US very openly prepares to do just the opposite - in the worst case you'll have to... well.
When did I say catch subs within a whole sea? China has a lot of sensors from Hainan all the way down to Spratleys. It doesn't need to block all of SCS to accomplish its strategic goals. # of MPAs is limited by hangar space and the need for other aerial platforms. Also, Malacca straits is too far. If they need additional ASW helicopters, 075 is the obvious answer.

lots of missiles isn't an attack stance. It's a standoff porcupine approach.
China with its missile arsenal can initially disable all the relevant air and naval bases in Japan.

Fleet won't be able to choke supply of goods to Japan(if we're at war with Japan - what's the problem with Ryukyus btw?) just by staying east of Taiwan.
(1)Japan has its eastern(cross-Pacific) supply route, too - the major one in fact. If you want to bring Japan to its knees - well, you will need to look there.
you might want to look up what % of oil and natural gas go to Japan from countries to the West and south of Japan.

(2)Fleet can't stay there for long enough when Taiwan is not captured - and when(if) it is - it isn't needed at all, because Tainan-based aircraft will do the job better than any fleet - simply because land airbase can stay in place indefinitely.
keeping Taiwan's air bases down is not hard. After initial strikes, drones, strike aircraft and PCL191 can destroy repairs efforts while China builds up its amphibious force.

(3)Fleet east of Taiwan can't be focused on blockade and especially ASW sweeps(ASW sweeps around what? in front of what? sweeping open empty ocean, where the only thing for SSNs to attack is you in the first place?). It's indeed a challenge to JMASDF or USN to fight a Mahanian action. Assuming your bait is strong enough(Taiwan invasion) - it'll happen, but it's a completely different topic.
it will serve several roles.
1) Allow them the option to land from East of Taiwan when they are ready to do so.
2) Allow them to maneuver further East and attack North Mariana islands so those bases do not get repaired after initial attack
3) Force remaining JMSDF fleet to come south to fight them in order to break the choke on the sea lane.
4) Allow them to persist aerial surveillance in the water from south of Kyushu to Philippine sea and hunt down any diesel submarines that snorkel and any nuclear submarines they encounter that are trying to break up the blockade of Japan.

Again, MPAs + ASW helicopters are protected by your carrier group so that they can find the threatening submarines and protect the carrier group and your SSBNs.
 

TK3600

Captain
Registered Member
Their number 1 concern is usn nuclear submarines. If they had no submarine threat, then 075 can concentrate on amphibious operation. However, plan is facing a huge submarine threat with no adequate submarine of its own to counter that. As such, it needs as many aerial assets as possible to hunt down the submarines.

More importantly, carrying a fleet of asw helicopters does not prevent it from carrying amphibious vehicles or landing craft needed for a landing. Unless you want them to use their helicopters to land Marines. Which is a pretty inefficient usage of naval aviation when you have hundreds of helicopters able to cross the straits from mainland side.

They are not going to try landing in Taiwan until they can secure air and sea control. Trying to land while ssn is running around loose is a disaster.
My guy Taiwan is surrounded by shallow sea, no nuclear sub is gonna penetrate a sufficiently escorted fleet near shore.
 

BoraTas

Captain
Registered Member
They are really not, they suffer through speed and high noise issues and they don't have hangar space large enough to carry Z20. The fact is PLAN has what it has and it needs to use what it has available on its hands.
I really wonder how you reached that conclusion. 27 knots is good enough. The statement about their noise levels is pure speculation since we don't have any data. Also, as far as I read from former naval personnel (of various countries) ship noise levels have become mostly irrelevant since active sonar became the preferred way of finding hostile subs again. The new paradigm also makes numbers and surface ships a lot more important which are, in my opinion, why we are seeing more 054s getting built.
The low aviation capability of the said ships is a problem for sure but I don't think that makes them inadequate. A single helicopter is likely good enough since we are talking about 80 (soon to become 100) ships here.
I also agree with other commenters. Type 075s are far too valuable to be risked in a high-risk mission like ASW. China has only 3 of them, they are very expensive and large, are very likely to have suboptimal flight facilities for the task and are of critical importance for any contingency. I would never risk them at ASW. If the Chinese gov thinks a conflict is imminent it should increase the anemic military spending and reserve a higher portion of Chinese shipbuilding capacity for naval expansion. China can easily accommodate the construction of 4-6 dedicated heli carriers without having their construction interfere with the construction of other classes. If the Chinese gov is not doing it, it means the Chinese gov thinks a conflict is not very likely and/or helicopter carriers are a bad idea.

Note: Small carriers are usually a bad idea. Contrary to a lot of Twitter "experts"'s opinion Hyuga class is a bad way to spend money.
 
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