055 Large Destroyer Thread II

plawolf

Lieutenant General
There are more benefits for having a dedicated mid-range SAM on a platform like DDG than not having one since a SAM suited for mid range (roughly 50km+) will be small and nimble to sustain higher G-turns than a big long range missile. It thus increases the PK for close-mid range engagements. Of course being able to quad-packed is doable for mid-range missiles due to their inherent size.

US Navy certainly see a benefit which is why they've invested heavily into the ESSM and have an extended range version I believe.
PLAN not having one on their DDGs is shortfall.

This is just combining two common and obvious mistakes.

1) only looking to platforms and not considering how those platforms fits in the overall system.

2) blindly take the US as the gold standard and assume everything they do needs to be copy pasted.

PLAN DDGs aren’t desperate for medium range SAMs because that’s what they bring FFGs along to carry.

In almost all typical PLAN surface fleets, you will have a mix of DDGs and FFGs with the number of each ship type corresponding to the amount of long and medium ranges missiles the task group needs.

USN DDGs need ESSMs because they don’t have FFGs so their DDGs need to do everything.

China has developed ESSM equivalent quad packable SAMs using the SD10 that have been advertised for export for years. But I think there are performance penalties associated with using such a small missile for medium ranged engagements compared to the much bigger HQ16 that the PLAN prefers fewer HQ16s over having more ESSM equivalents missiles on its 054As.

Personally I believe the biggest factors are speed, KP and type of targets it can engage.

While the ESSM has a high listed max speed, there is no getting around the physical size of the missile itself. It’s propellant reserves will burn out at a fraction of its max engagement range, meaning it’s decelerating and loosing KE and by extension, KP all the rest of the way. The HQ16 OTOH, is in the size class of the US standard missile, and has many times the volume for more propellant and bigger seeker and warhead. It will have much more of its engagement envelope under powered flight, and bring a much bigger seeker and warhead, with correspondingly higher hit probability and bigger kill zone, all adding up to much higher KP as well as allowing it to engage smaller RCS targets coming in at higher speeds and doing terminal manoeuvring.

These factors are extra important for medium ranged SAMs, because by its nature these missiles are meant to deal with threats that have managed to get past the long range defence layer and are much closer to your ships (and thus more dangerous). All you need is look at the rumoured requirements for the PLAN’s quad packed 5-5-5 MR missile to see its next to impossible they will be able to get that sort of performance out of an ESSM sized missile, so that 5-5-5 missile will probably only be quad packable in the larger UVLS cells.
 

Cloud_Nine_

Junior Member
Registered Member
There are more benefits for having a dedicated mid-range SAM on a platform like DDG than not having one since a SAM suited for mid range (roughly 50km+) will be small and nimble to sustain higher G-turns than a big long range missile. It thus increases the PK for close-mid range engagements. Of course being able to quad-packed is doable for mid-range missiles due to their inherent size.

US Navy certainly see a benefit which is why they've invested heavily into the ESSM and have an extended range version I believe.
PLAN not having one on their DDGs is shortfall.
Mid-range missiles as a concept is a problematic slope we should probably avoid. AAM/SAM ranges should be taken with a huge grain of salt as they can mean anything from their kinetic ranges to their furthest lethal ranges. ESSM's quoted 50km range is not necessarily its actual performance in practical scenarios. Even though usually we consider HQ16's range to be around 80km but HQ16 is a much more capable missile kinetically than ESSM is. How much energy does ESSM have left even if it flies out to 50km? This is an important question too.

There's also a very simple reason why USN buys a lot of ESSMs: they are cheap. USN faces all kinds of adversaries and not all of them require hugely expensive high-end SAMs. In addition, USN surface combatants are not all armed with RAMs and Phalanxes, in fact, a substantial proportion of them have only one or neither. They can afford to do this because overall their fleet has many more VLSs to spare. In any case, I think it'd be better to consider ESSM to be more of an extended point-defense missile rather than a mid-range SAM.

It honestly could just be that PLAN considers ESSM to be neither a substantially large enough upgrade to the HQ10+1130 combo nor a good trade-off in 4-pack config compared to a single HQ9 in their combat scenarios.
 

by78

General
Another magazine scan of 108.

52828286699_6e7d09f22f_k.jpg
 

FarkTypeSoldier

Junior Member

From the screenshots from davidau, the similar video is here.

This video is about Type 055 class, 105 Dalian, having a live firing exercise and other exercises onboard. It is in Chinese. This episode shows the cabin, the 130mm gun firing and on the command & control deck alongside the engine room.

This also features the Type 052D class, 131 Taiyuan.

Enjoy!
 
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