055 Large Destroyer Thread II


HighGround

New Member
Registered Member
I think the emphasis on "tonnage" is a little misguided. Yes, surface combatants are getting heavier, but I don't think that tonnage is the main number we should be looking at.
 

Biscuits

Captain
Registered Member
All these comparisons with USA when there is a navy that actually almost mirrors China's force structure... Japan.

Even through nowadays there's a signficant tech and numbers gap, the basic principle of the forces are similar, and I don't think that is a coincidence.

Both operate light DDGs in addition to full sized DDGs. The tasks of the light destroyer is to help shield the rest of the fleet by linking up with the more powerful radar of the full sized destroyer.

The idea is that 052 + 055 together > 2 Burkes/ticos, while costing less than 2 055s. A 052 doesn't become "worse" than a 055 as long as they're linked together, until the mission requires both ships to fire more than 64 large missiles or even more smaller missiles.

Similar to Japan, China has also in the past relied on modern SSKs to hold an adversary nuclear submarine in check using shallows as a strategic defense.

PLAN is a defensively focused navy, they have to be in order to counter threats from more militarized states.

China might be slowly changing the lineup by introducing supercarriers and a large SSN fleet, but China isn't going to stupidly fight as "little Americans" by going head to head with CBGs and 055s against US CBGs and Burkes. They're going to fight using their own doctrines that lets a smaller elite force with the home court advantage knock out a larger enemy. That includes using small DDGs, FFGs and SSKs.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Guys, it's nice to see an alternative universe within a specific thread, but as of January 2023 - 055 production run is stopped at original 8. 052DLs are being verifiably built, laid down, and ordered as we speak...

I agree that speculating too much about "055 replacing all other ships" isn't useful, but I also think it is a given that 055 production will shortly resume and we are all just waiting for the first signs of it.

It would be a bold claim to speak of 055 as if it is not going to grow beyond 8 units.
 

tanino

Just Hatched
Registered Member
USN finì con l'inventario tutto Burke perché era una flotta pax-americana intermedia di "incrociatori del mondo liberi" - di cui hai bisogno di circa 80 per coprire il mondo (conosciamo questo numero dalle stime sia britanniche che americane per le marittime globali impero).

Sogno della flotta universale di cacciatorpediniere, che possono agire sia come scorta di flotta, "corazzate" negli SSG a sé stanti, navi d'attacco LCM (la griglia a 96 celle deriva da questo requisito specifico, per il puro uso AA è enormemente sovradimensionata) e in tempo di pace incrociatori (sì, qualcuno ha deciso che la pax americana è così americana che intercettare lo yemenita Dhau con un Burke è un bel piano).
In un certo senso, è una configurazione ottimale quando non hai davvero un nemico in grado di combattere in mare, poiché non ce n'erano letteralmente dopo la caduta dell'Unione Sovietica.

Per prima cosa il Dream ha iniziato a mostrare segni di cose che andavano male quando l'intera idea della futura flotta (che era ancora più idealistica della Pax Americana - invece di sorvegliare l'oceano mondiale, basta imbottigliare quei pochi selvaggi con una flotta super tecnologica di LCS, droni e DDX). Ha fallito in modo spettacolare: nessuno degli Stati Uniti è riuscito a produrre ciò che voleva e ha perso la capacità di progettare ciò che voleva come bonus.
E i "selvaggi ignoranti" non sono stati all'altezza delle aspettative e hanno effettivamente prodotto concetti di combattimento praticabili nel 21 ° secolo. Gli estintori ad alta tecnologia hanno fallito sul tavolo da disegno prima ancora di fallire nelle prove.

Ma gli Stati Uniti avevano ancora gli splendidi Burkes, sì? Beh, sì ma no.

Perché poi il Dream ha iniziato a incrinarsi anche prima dell'ascesa cinese: gli Stati Uniti, anche con il loro budget, hanno scoperto di non potersi davvero permettere così tante navi così costose che effettuano un servizio 33/33/33.

E poi è successa la Cina - e gli Stati Uniti sono rimasti intrappolati in un pantano. Devono costruire, al più presto (la Cina costruisce alla velocità della Cina!), non possono nemmeno superare adeguatamente il livello in cui le loro navi vanno semplicemente fuori servizio (Burkes fa male), e grazie a tutto il futuro debackle della flotta - hanno praticamente perso la capacità di progettare navi di nuova generazione.
L'unica via d'uscita era, no, non quel lontano futuro combattente (che è a più di un decennio di distanza da noi). È stato il FREMM italiano, che è stato ridisegnato in Constellation, a iniziare finalmente a guadagnare - non perdere - alcuni numeri oceanici.
Sì, le costellazioni essenzialmente uccidono il sogno di Burke-of-all-trades. Ma perdere un sogno è comunque meglio che non avere abbastanza navi per la flotta da battaglia.

Il problema è precisamente che 052D è conveniente e, se mescolato, con 055 dà un uguale avversario alla forza tutta Burke (a un prezzo più economico e producibile ~ due volte più veloce di quanto gli Stati Uniti sperano di ottenere, e ~ 3 volte più veloce di quanto siano effettivamente facendo).

Ma per gli Stati Uniti, con la loro fallacia di Burke, l'obiettivo non è nemmeno più eguagliare la Cina (impossibile, lol) - è almeno essere in grado di schierare tutti i gruppi di portaerei e anfibi per cui hanno navi. E spero che in qualche modo le navi di superficie senza equipaggio li portino magicamente fuori dalla loro miseria in futuro.
FREMM = I super agree.
 

HighGround

New Member
Registered Member
I agree that speculating too much about "055 replacing all other ships" isn't useful, but I also think it is a given that 055 production will shortly resume and we are all just waiting for the first signs of it.

It would be a bold claim to speak of 055 as if it is not going to grow beyond 8 units.
Do you expect any major modifications to the class if they do resume production?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
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Do you expect any major modifications to the class if they do resume production?

I expect a new highly modified variant in future at some point, but I think it's still unknown if the rumoured 055 restart that is happening/will be happening soon, will have any major modifications or if it will be mostly the same as the first batch.
 

abc123

Junior Member
Registered Member
Combat systems can be updated to negate the need for Tico-type AAW command ships, but 055 still has a fleet action command center which 052C/Ds don't, we already see 055s leading SAGs operating independently of CVBGs. Also if the number of 055s needed is intrinsically linked to the number of carriers need (i.e. the role of 055s defined by their role in CVBGs), 8 is a lot for 2 carriers I'd say.

By comparison, when in 1975 USN reclassified frigates as cruisers, USN operated 27 cruisers and 15 carriers; in 83 when CG-47 was commissioned USN operated 28 cruisers and 13 carriers; and before this year when the Tico class began to decommission, 22 cruisers and 10 carriers. Obviously, this is very much a rough comparison but generally speaking, USN maintains a 2:1 ratio of cruisers and carriers, corresponding with what usually, or ideally, is a 2-cruiser composition in each CVBG/CSG.

So obviously 055 has more roles besides just protecting carriers, and the number of 055s PLAN need probably is related more to overall fleet fighting capabilities. Considering the current PLAN distribution of the first batch of 8 055s by 4 and 4 for Destroyer Flotillas 1 and 9, I'd go with the common speculation that PLAN might intend to arm each of its Destroyer Flotillas with 4 Type 055s. At the very least, 4 more for the Eastern Theatre Command. Besides, we already know for high certainty that Jiangnan is building at least 1 new 055.
IMHO, one cruiser per CV and LHD is enough. So, with 2(3) carriers and 3 LHDs, 7 or 8 is more than enough for now.
I mean, why make surface action groups when all these ships really do make the best synergy within a carrier battle group. They protect the carrier, carrier protects them.
 

Lime

Junior Member
Registered Member
Compressing combat ships' tonnage is one of PLAN's character. The tonnage of the original model of 055 is more than 20000t.
 

by78

Lieutenant General
107 Zunyi (遵义). This is the first video/imagery evidence I've seen that conclusively confirms it's in service.

52639064510_4b6b002f38_k.jpg

107 Zunyi's crest.

52646702847_e3c6aa71b9_b.jpg
 

ACuriousPLAFan

Captain
Registered Member
While larger ships have more capability than smaller ships, they don’t scale well in terms of hits that they can sustain. It has been established that the number of hits required to mission kill a ship scales as the cube root of its displacement. In fleet on fleet action of equal displacement, the more numerous fleet is able to soak more incoming missiles and sustain more hits while staying in the fight.
Sure, I do agree on this.

Though, the hull of which the 052D-class DDG is based upon has pretty much been pushed against its limits by now. When there is a demand for significant capability step-up in the coming years, I'm concerned that the dimension and displacement of the 052D may not be able to do much.

For instance, if China wants to install larger VLS cells on the destroyers to house larger strike missiles (like what the US is planning to do with the DDGX) in the future, there would be no space left on the 052D to do so without eating into the original VLS volume that is going to be crucial for housing anti-air missiles. What about directed-energy weapon-based CIWS - Does the 052D's propulsion and electrical system has enough spare capacity for them? And what about more powerful radar and fire-control systems to better face against future threats, especially if the PLAN is looking towards equipping more of their destroyers with sea-based ballistic missile defense (BMD) capability?

Coupled with other factors such as crew accomodation and endurance, hence my arguement for a successor class which would be more powerful and more heavily armed, but still within reasonable limits that Chinese shipyards can still build them in large numbers simultaneously.
 

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