055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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Solaris

Banned Idiot
The new VLS is also larger than Mk-41 and is even larger than Mk-57, which in turn allows ships equipped with in the new VLS to fire larger missiles, effectively future proofing it better than other smaller VLS.

Cold launch also means that they can afford to fire larger missiles which hot launch VLS may otherwise be unable to handle given there is a limit to which a cell can withstand the exhaust of a missile. Cold launch should get rid of this problem entirely by lighting the motor outside of the cell.
I thought the bigger VLS cell of the concentric launcher is due largely or entirely to the need for a self-contained exhaust manifold, so I'm not sure the exterior dimensions can inform on the interior capacity, since we don't know the amount of volume set aside for venting the exhaust. We obviously can't rule out an overall capacity increase, but I'd ideally like to see some official or maybe semi-official interior specs for these tubes.

Cold launch cold potentially fire larger missiles, but then you need more compressed gas ejecting the larger missiles at higher pressures, so I'm not sure if the tradeoff would be a successful one. This kind of answer probably would require someone intimately familiar with these types of systems, or at least the chemistry and physics knowledge needed to address the problem.

Overall I like the concept of the concentric launcher, but I wonder if there is some unknown issue with this type of system considering it was never adopted by the USN even though I believe various proposals have been submitted in the past. Maybe it is volume-inefficient, for example perhaps a 128-cell CCL system requires the infrastructure of a 12,000 ton 055 rather than the 128-cell Mark 41 of a 10,000 Ticonderoga. Something to think about.....
 

Blitzo

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I thought the bigger VLS cell of the concentric launcher is due largely or entirely to the need for a self-contained exhaust manifold, so I'm not sure the exterior dimensions can inform on the interior capacity, since we don't know the amount of volume set aside for venting the exhaust. We obviously can't rule out an overall capacity increase, but I'd ideally like to see some official or maybe semi-official interior specs for these tubes.

On the 052D Wikipedia page (which is actually very well written) they refer to a unclassified GJB (chinese equivalent to MIL-STD), which list the effective parameters of the new VLS. The original documents can be found on CDF if you wish to see them yourself.

But basically the summary was that the diameter of the the tube itself is 0.85m. That is to say, the 0.85m diameter is of the internal missile tube and is not derived from any external observation at all.
New part of that width will of course be allocated to the concentric venting system for hot launch, but for cold launch, the full width of the cell can theoretically be used.


Cold launch cold potentially fire larger missiles, but then you need more compressed gas ejecting the larger missiles at higher pressures, so I'm not sure if the tradeoff would be a successful one. This kind of answer probably would require someone intimately familiar with these types of systems, or at least the chemistry and physics knowledge needed to address the problem.

The only issue I have with cold launch for the VLS is whether the gas driven piston for cold launch will substantially reduce the length of the cell.

Overall I like the concept of the concentric launcher, but I wonder if there is some unknown issue with this type of system considering it was never adopted by the USN even though I believe various proposals have been submitted in the past. Maybe it is volume-inefficient, for example perhaps a 128-cell CCL system requires the infrastructure of a 12,000 ton 055 rather than the 128-cell Mark 41 of a 10,000 Ticonderoga. Something to think about.....

Well, different services have used different set ups for different reasons, some of which may be due to existing infrastructure, doctrinal preference, or even tradition. Kind of like how there has never been an operational US fighter with a canard arrangement, despite there being nothing a particularly disadvantageous (and arguably the set up having some advantages) compared to a more conventional aerodynamic configuration.
 
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Totoro

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both s300 and hq9 canisters on tel vehicles use half a meter longer canister than the length of missiles inside. While i don't have data concerning where exactly the whole cold launch mechanism is, it would seem logical that, even if it is not all contained within those half a meter of difference, that it is modular enough that part of it can be placed away from the launch tubes themselves on the TELs. And if so, similar approach may be used on ship launchers as well.

hot launched missiles however will most likely be smaller than 0,85 meters in diameter, as fair bit of that space will be used for rocket motor exhaust. But, again, it doesn't seem as if hot launched method is really needed for most part. Even some western systems in the near future are going to use cold launch method, like the RN's sea ceptor. And that's a quick reaction missile. Kind of makes me wonder if hot launch is needed for anything at all nowadays?
 

getready

Senior Member
That last point was also somewhat affirmed when we found out how big the Type 055 would be. There's almost no reason to field a destroyer of that size unless you needed the endurance.

I thought the last point was affirmed earlier. When we know china has a carrier program?
 

Solaris

Banned Idiot
But basically the summary was that the diameter of the the tube itself is 0.85m. That is to say, the 0.85m diameter is of the internal missile tube and is not derived from any external observation at all.
New part of that width will of course be allocated to the concentric venting system for hot launch, but for cold launch, the full width of the cell can theoretically be used.
That is unfortunately a limitation of the CCL system. If you want hot launch, you have to accept a reduced cell width (or diameter?) and if you want cold launch you have to accept a reduced cell length. I believe the internal width of a Mark 41 cell is 0.65m, of which Tomahawk the largest type round takes up the entire space of the cell, leaving you 0.1m on each side for exhaust venting if the PLAN wants a similarly-sized internal cell for its own purposes. I don't know if that is enough or whether a hot-launched missile would have to make due with a smaller internal cell volume. If the cell is circular you could probably get away with corner-only venting but then this configuration precludes quad-packing. Whatever the case, it is readily apparent that a wide variety of cell types would have to have been developed to support the various missile systems that are potentially being used.

both s300 and hq9 canisters on tel vehicles use half a meter longer canister than the length of missiles inside. While i don't have data concerning where exactly the whole cold launch mechanism is, it would seem logical that, even if it is not all contained within those half a meter of difference, that it is modular enough that part of it can be placed away from the launch tubes themselves on the TELs. And if so, similar approach may be used on ship launchers as well.
That would give it an even larger footprint on/in the ship than is already apparent from the photos, in which case the CCL system would be extremely volume-inefficient compared to a hot launch system.
 

yuxiaochen

Junior Member
I've been following this thread for quite a while now, there were a few things I wanted to say ever since I joined this forum but couldn't due to the sensitive of the information. but when I saw what people are posting on this thread I can finally get it off my chest.

Last summer I went back to china to visit my father, who worked as a naval engineer for the PLAN for the past 2 decades or so, told me there are two new types of DDG are being developed. one of which is the newly revealed 052D. The other one though he didn't give me the exact designation, he did tell me it will a 10k ton "heavy cruiser" type DDG with 2 VLS systems containing a total of 128 missile launchers.

Now I know some people might say "well you jsut got the information from the internet :mad::mad::mad:"... but remember I was too afraid to say anything about it anywhere. and now information regarding type 055 are out, I guess I can speak freely for the moment.

cheers.
 

jobjed

Captain
I've been following this thread for quite a while now, there were a few things I wanted to say ever since I joined this forum but couldn't due to the sensitive of the information. but when I saw what people are posting on this thread I can finally get it off my chest.

Last summer I went back to china to visit my father, who worked as a naval engineer for the PLAN for the past 2 decades or so, told me there are two new types of DDG are being developed. one of which is the newly revealed 052D. The other one though he didn't give me the exact designation, he did tell me it will a 10k ton "heavy cruiser" type DDG with 2 VLS systems containing a total of 128 missile launchers.

Now I know some people might say "well you jsut got the information from the internet :mad::mad::mad:"... but remember I was too afraid to say anything about it anywhere. and now information regarding type 055 are out, I guess I can speak freely for the moment.

cheers.

Oh well, now it's a toss-up between you and POP3. You, or you dad, says 10k tonnes and POP3 says 12k tonnes; hard to tell who to believe.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
That is unfortunately a limitation of the CCL system. If you want hot launch, you have to accept a reduced cell width (or diameter?) and if you want cold launch you have to accept a reduced cell length. I believe the internal width of a Mark 41 cell is 0.65m, of which Tomahawk the largest type round takes up the entire space of the cell, leaving you 0.1m on each side for exhaust venting if the PLAN wants a similarly-sized internal cell for its own purposes. I don't know if that is enough or whether a hot-launched missile would have to make due with a smaller internal cell volume. If the cell is circular you could probably get away with corner-only venting but then this configuration precludes quad-packing. Whatever the case, it is readily apparent that a wide variety of cell types would have to have been developed to support the various missile systems that are potentially being used.

I believe the "tubes" are square. I've read that the CCL can use corner venting and obviously only circlulsr tubes lack corners, thus squares. This quad packing doesn't become an issue.
Now, you point out that fitting a larger missile like tomahawk will limit the cell's exhaust volume, yes that is true. However is believe that larger missiles will be cold launcher instead, meaning they can fit missiles as large as the 0.85m cell width.

Of course, you mention that cold launch requires the addition of a piston to propel the missile out, however considering even HQ-9 has such a piston only 50cm long, even if we double that and cut out 1m out of the 9m length for the strike length CCL cell, that is still 8m left for missile length, and more importantly such a missile can take up the full 0.85m width/diameter of the cell.
Obviously the piston itself will vary in length considering how heavy the missile being driven is, but the key point is that cold launch allows the CCL VLS to take advantage of it's large cell width to launch missiles which smaller hot launch VLS like Mk-41 or Mk-57 cannot.

And totoro makes a good point because knowing all this we have to wonder whether hot launch is really needed.

As for space inefficiency, we can see it in differing ways.
The CCL VLS has individually larger cells and we know its hot launch will be limited by missile diameter (and thus in turn the venting volume left). However in return for that it has greater individual cell width and can easily accommodate cold launch missiles, and even the heaviest of such missiles would only result in a modest "decrease" in effective cell length resulting from the addition of a piston (however note that a realistic piston length will still leave a longer cell than most others in the world, and more than enough for virtually anything short of an IRBM)

Traditional hot launch VLS has individually smaller cells and a common exhaust venting system. Such a system is only limited by the cell width and the exhaust which the common exhaust can endure. No cell length reduction is present but even they are shorter than the PLANs CCL VLS in the first place.

Realizing all this, if we try to imagine a hot launch VLS that can do wha the CCL VLS can so -- namely an 8 cell module that launch missiles up to 0.85m diameter -- the result will be something larger than the current CCL VLS because it would necessitate a massive common exhaust system, therefore it's deck floor print and thus overall volume will be much larger than the CCL VLS.
So ultimately I would argue that a CCL VLS is more space efficient in launching larger missiles because the PLANs CCL VLS is designed for both hot and cold launch with minimal reduction in effective cell volume.
 
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