055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

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weig2000

Captain
I am totally lost ... what are you trying to say?

LOL. Sometimes his message is even harder to decipher than Chinese military information.

Jokes aside, I think FORBIN is complaining about the secrecy and non-transparency of official information about Chinese military. He has complained about it many times before.

To an extent, I would concur with that sentiment. It's quite frustrating for people who are very interested in military affairs and equipment of China - a tiny proportion of the general population aside from intelligence and think-tank people. I know I spend a lot of hours sifting through all kinds of sources as an enthusiast trying to understand and find out reliable information. And I understand Chinese. Think about how even more frustrating for non-Chinese speakers.

That said, there have been historical and valid reasons for the practice. For much of the history, the CCP and by extension PRC had faced with all kinds of adversaries, most of the time as underdog. And secrecy has been one of its weapons and defense. PRC is so much stronger today, and it has gotten much better in terms of transparency and is still getting better. But for a number of reasons it's still not to us "fanboys" (LOL) liking. One is that the old habit dies hard, the other is that as strong as it is, PRC still faces potential adversaries which outmatch it in military capabilities by quite a margin.
 
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FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
LOL. Sometimes his message is even harder to decipher than Chinese military information.

Jokes aside, I think FORBIN is complaining about the secrecy and non-transparency of official information about Chinese military. He has complained about it many times before.

To an extent, I would concur with that sentiment. It's quite frustrating for people who are very interested in military affairs and equipment of China - a tiny proportion of the general population aside from intelligence and think-tank people. I know I spend a lot of hours sifting through all kinds of sources as an enthusiast trying to understand and find out reliable information. And I understand Chinese. Think about how even more frustrating for non-Chinese speakers.

That said, there have been historical and valid reasons for the practice. For much of the history, the CCP and by extension PRC had faced with all kinds of adversaries, most of the time as underdog. And secrecy has been one of its weapons and defense. PRC is so much stronger today, and it has gotten much better in terms of transparency and is still getting better. But for a number of reasons it's still not to our "fanboys" (LOL) liking. One is that the old habit dies hard, the other is that as strong as it is, PRC still faces potential adversaries which outmatch it in military capabilities by quite a margin.

Without to be cavalier i am quite sure have much more infos than you think...especialy for Orbats...
look last posts for Yuan and i do it for all countries with reliable infos not bla bla and i don' t you see you provide much... u talk much in fact but for the rest not always usefull and mainly fair in more...
 
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weig2000

Captain
Without to be cavalier i am quite sure have much more infos than you think...especialy for Orbats...
look last posts for Yuan i don' t you see provide much... u talk only much in fact...

Yes, I agree. I'm quite impressed that you seem to have kept a close tap on those things. And I admire that. I know it takes a lot of time and effort. For a lot of those info, PRC should just publish them, there is really no need to make them secret. They're definitely behind the curves.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Yes agree on the fund and in general your not " cavalier " your objective not too patriotic in your posts they are objective with an opinion not biased but unfortunately we have several specialists for do propaganda...! which is stupid and in more useless.

And yes it is very surprising much Chinese military subjects are very very sensitive and we go for " scandal" if one say such Chinese weapons, armament, vehicle etc is not good, i don' t see same problems for all others countries, so curious unusual and mainly idiot.

For size of the 055 really incredible these matters of size with others main rivals MSC the size coz mass allow to a ship to be less vulnerable ofc but with actual construction method, technology don't need do a Kirov which in more have a unusual and very cumbersome propulsion.

All humans are biased and influenced by their own background and past experience. With that said, I believe that most of us here at the SDF do try to be as objective as we can.

Most logical arguments on the quality of Chinese weapons systems have been accepted and acknowledged no matter who proposes it. And most of us have criticized one or more Chinese-designed weapon systems. I, for one, have been a big opponent of the J-31. I would not hesitate to say that I don't like it and I want the program shut down if I can have anything to do with it. Additionally, I don't think a single member (pro-China or not) praised the photos showing PAP soldiers wielding the "wolf-teeth mace". So it's not simply "blind patriotism" as you call it.

What most would not accept is the double standard when discussing China's matters. It is OK for other countries to do, but it would be insane/fanboism/fantasy when China does the same. It is the double standard that people have been sick of.

Of course, in this case, I stopped posting on the matter when Richard responded to me that he simply doesn't like huge ships. If he is targeting the Type 055 because he doesn't like huge battle ships in general, then it is a technical matter. And he is entitled to have his opinion on it even though I don't agree with him.

I believe what other members have been doing is to discuss the technical aspect of the Type 055 and argue that it is logical to build huge battle ships. Such discussion is over my head but is entirely warranted and has nothing to do with patriotism.
 

weig2000

Captain
Without to be cavalier i am quite sure have much more infos than you think...especialy for Orbats...
look last posts for Yuan and i do it for all countries with reliable infos not bla bla and i don' t you see you provide much... u talk much in fact but for the rest not always usefull and mainly fair in more...

I actually missed the part you were "attacking" me for my supposed lack of contribution and just talking (because a lot of times I could not understand what you are trying to say). As I said earlier, I agree you have made contribution to SDF by providing orbat information.

But I would disagree with your characterization of my participation in the forum. I would let people in this forum to make their judgement. There are things I'm very interested, and there are things I'm not terribly interested in keeping a close tap on, like the detailed orbat information although I have some rough ideas of those of PLA and some other militaries. I try to provide relevant information, official, semi-official, and unofficial but with some credibility. I may synthesize them, provide my analysis and opinions. I generally am not into protracted, very detailed technical discussions, but understand others may be interested to do so. I don't actually post a lot for the years I've been a SDF member, but can hold my own in my posting.

If you don't like my posts, feel free to ignore them, just as I do most of yours other than the orbat stuff simply because I have a hard time to make out of you're trying to say.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Yes agree on the fund and in general your not " cavalier " your objective not too patriotic in your posts they are objective with an opinion not biased but unfortunately we have several specialists for do propaganda...! which is stupid and in more useless.

And yes it is very surprising much Chinese military subjects are very very sensitive and we go for " scandal" if one say such Chinese weapons, armament, vehicle etc is not good, i don' t see same problems for all others countries, so curious unusual and mainly idiot.

For size of the 055 really incredible these matters of size with others main rivals MSC the size coz mass allow to a ship to be less vulnerable ofc but with actual construction method, technology don't need do a Kirov which in more have a unusual and very cumbersome propulsion.

I literally don't understand what your words mean.

I will just repeat my previous post's main thrust, which is that the problem I had with Richard's post was his assertion essentially that either people here were fanboys, or that people reached 055's displacement because of fanboy desires, and ignoring all of the accumulation of relevant information, rumours and pictures over the last couple of years to reach a conclusion.

Everything else you wrote, whatever it is, if it doesn't directly acknowledge that point which I've made then I consider it irrelevant to the discussion.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I actually missed the part you were "attacking" me for my supposed lack of contribution and just talking (because a lot of times I could not understand what you are trying to say). As I said earlier, I agree you have made contribution to SDF by providing orbat information.

But I would disagree with your characterization of my participation in the forum. I would let people in this forum to make their judgement. There are things I'm very interested, and there are things I'm not terribly interested in keeping a close tap on, like the detailed orbat information although I have some rough ideas of those of PLA and some other militaries. I try to provide relevant information, official, semi-official, and unofficial but with some credibility. I may synthesize them, provide my analysis and opinions. I generally am not into protracted, very detailed technical discussions, but understand others may be interested to do so. I don't actually post a lot for the years I've been a SDF member, but can hold my own in my posting.

If you don't like my posts, feel free to ignore them, just as I do most of yours other than the orbat stuff simply because I have a hard time to make out of you're trying to say.

For the record, I consider your posts very informative, especially relaying news from the BBS that we don't pick up on and giving context to Chinese language information.

Considering the newest Chinese military developments rely on BBS news and Chinese language news, having the ability to relay that info is very useful. You, jobjed, Jaybird (he's not here much anymore) and others being able to relay those rumours is arguably the most valuable asset English language PLA watching forums have.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Robert Fairly take on type 55 which concurs well with what has been discussed on this forum as to "the raison d'etre of type 55". Here what he said

Let's Talk About the Chinese Navy's Type 055 Destroyer
What does the People’s Liberation Army Navy have in store for the Type 055?
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What does China have planned for the
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(or cruiser-size destroyer)?

Over the past month, numerous reports have emerged about the progress of the class of large ships. The People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN)
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, in two groups. The first ship, building at Dalian, will likely hit the water next year, and potentially commission in 2018 or 2019.

Guesses regarding size have ranged from 12,000 to 20,000 tons, with most estimates concentrating on the lower end. Expectations about employment of the ships vary quite a bit, but there is general agreement that the PLAN has determined that it needs a large ship able to operate at great distance from home bases, and that will presumably include anti-air, anti-submarine, and anti-surface capabilities. Like many modern surface combatants, the Type 055 will apparently have features designed to reduce its radar cross section and thus enhance survivability.

Mission matters quite a bit for the final configuration of the class. The Type 055 looks like the core of a long-range battlegroup, or the central part of the escort for another major PLAN asset, such as an aircraft carrier or
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These ships will show the flag as China’s navy demonstrates its increasing range, scope, and power. The need for range, self-sufficiency, and multi-mission capability creates the need for size.

It’s worth noting that other navies have found different reasons for constructing large ships. The
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as platforms for cruise missiles designed to strike American carrier battlegroups. China, however, already has plenty of ways to attack carriers, with surface ships being among the least cost-effective platforms. Moreover, the engineering of cruise missiles has changed over the years, reducing the footprint needed to carry effective offensive weapons. For their part, the Americans designed the 14,000 ton Zumwalt-class around a series of innovative technologies, for which the destroyers will serve as a test bed and demonstrator.

Given the multi-role mission described above, the Type 055 looks more like a large Arleigh Burke or
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, rather than a
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or something new and experimental like the Zumwalt-class destroyer. Given the limited global need for large, expensive ships that fulfill these roles, the construction of the Type 055 may not portend a new era of competition in dimensions.

That said, the large size of the ship could be used to accommodate a variety of different advanced technologies. Larger ships can generate more power and accommodate a larger Vertical Launching System capacity. As new offensive and defensive technologies emerge, power generation may enable large ships to effectively defend themselves from an array of threats, while also maintaining devastating offensive capabilities.

Long story short (or perhaps Big Story Small), technological trends may again reward size in surface combatants. If so, shipbuilders and naval architects around the world will have a great deal of work to do.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
I literally don't understand what your words mean.

I will just repeat my previous post's main thrust, which is that the problem I had with Richard's post was his assertion essentially that either people here were fanboys, or that people reached 055's displacement because of fanboy desires, and ignoring all of the accumulation of relevant information, rumours and pictures over the last couple of years to reach a conclusion.

Everything else you wrote, whatever it is, if it doesn't directly acknowledge that point which I've made then I consider it irrelevant to the discussion.
Obviously not fortunately !
But not for you as i have yet say but a certain number ofc Chinese members in general are too " optimistic " and for their asumptions for spécifications, capacities etc..not realist and useless naturaly.
Sometimes funy really. but the problem is here we have members of all countries and it is not serious...
For any other country i see it.
 
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