055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Iron Man]

To provide the same degree of firepower as an 055 in the form of 052Ds, the Navy would need to field two 052Ds in lieu of one 055, and I think there is a good case to argue that the fuel and supplies needed to maintain two 052Ds on cruising station in a given theatre would likely be greater than that of an equivalent 055 even if the 055 is cruising on gas turbines and the 052Ds on diesels.
[That is what I meant in my last post when I said "055 as being the ability to reduce the frequency/demands for resupply and refuelling relative to providing the capabilities which 055 provides in another form (like 052Ds)," though it probably wasn't phrased that well.]

You would need to demonstrate that the PLAN would routinely want double the firepower of the 052D in any significant number of scenarios for it to have been a worthwhile consideration/driver for the 055's introduction over something else like cruiser vs destroyer role. For carrier defense this is obviously a benefit, but for convoy escort, patrol, anti-piracy, showing the flag/port visits, etc., you would not need double the firepower of a 052D, and a comparison of one 055 to two 052Ds becomes unnecessary in many if not most cases where a 052D or a 055 would be used.

Of course, two 052Ds also means the two ships can cover more patrol area and offers greater flexibility etc, compared to a single 055 in certain mission profiles.
But I think that doesn't invalidate the idea that the 055's likely superior endurance (combined with its greater armament, command/control etc) will make it a more suitable and/or cost effective solution for certain missions mission profiles than 052Ds, in terms of the need to resupply and/or refuel.

edit: in terms of 055 having reduced need to resupply and/or refuel, I see the major benefits of this as making the job of the logistics tail easier, as it should allow a replenishment ship to have to return to port to restock less often (regardless of whether it is supporting a CSG, SAG or occasionally topping up a single lone 055), and reducing the overall length of the logistics tail of the Navy generally speaking. Of course, the effect this may have on reducing the Navy's logistics tail would depend on the kinds of missions the Navy decides to pursue (i.e.: missions where 055 and replenishment ships could come into play, like blue water missions), but also on the number of 055s in service overall (where more 055s instead of the equivalent capability in number of 052Ds will be able to paradoxically provide greater alleviation for the logistics demand)

How much less often? And is the decrease in replenishment need sufficient enough tactically and in a large enough number of scenarios to make the PLAN consider it in the design? I don't think anyone here knows the answer to this question.

 

[Blitzo]

You would need to demonstrate that the PLAN would routinely want double the firepower of the 052D in any significant number of scenarios for it to have been a worthwhile consideration/driver for the 055's introduction over something else like cruiser vs destroyer role. For carrier defense this is obviously a benefit, but for convoy escort, patrol, anti-piracy, showing the flag/port visits, etc., you would not need double the firepower of a 052D, and a comparison of one 055 to two 052Ds becomes unnecessary in many if not most cases where a 052D or a 055 would be used.

I think CSG is obviously one role where that endurance would come into play, but also independent patrols in medium intensity environments, SAG deployment, all in blue water of course.

Convoy escort, anti-piracy/general patrol in low intensity environments, and showing flag/port visits would be more the job of frigates and maybe medium destroyers.
Though of course having a large destroyer make a port visit occasionally as part of their other missions is also pretty standard, but far more of a secondary or even tertiary "mission" compared to CSG, SAG, independent patrol missions.

How much less often? And is the decrease in replenishment need sufficient enough tactically and in a large enough number of scenarios to make the PLAN consider it in the design? I don't think anyone here knows the answer to this question.

Sure, and I'm not saying that this is something which has or will definitely play out in the exact way I have described, but I think given the overall direction of the Chinese Navy's future missions and blue water requirements (considering 055s will likely remain in service for at least 2 decades, more likely 3), I think the premises and logic I've presented have some meaningful heft to them.

At the very least, I think the idea that the Navy would value the 055's likely greater endurance and the benefits that may have for reducing the logistics tail for blue water deployments is a reasonable one to argue for in the context of the previous discussion regarding why the Navy would desire a larger surface combatant compared to say an 052D (along with all the other reasons for why a larger destroyer like 055 has a role in the Chinese Navy, that you, me and others have already described as well in great length).

 

[antiterror13]

Considering the exceedingly impressive degree of corruption revealed in top ranks of the PLA, it would be truly unbelievable if PLA's acquisition is not also influenced to a impressive degree by political considerations of pleasing non-professional fan boys in the power structure of the government and amongst the uninformed public.

have you read the forum rules? ... I can sense your life would be very short here

 

[FORBIN]

You would need to demonstrate that the PLAN would routinely want double the firepower of the 052D in any significant number of scenarios for it to have been a worthwhile consideration/driver for the 055's introduction over something else like cruiser vs destroyer role. For carrier defense this is obviously a benefit, but for convoy escort, patrol, anti-piracy, showing the flag/port visits, etc., you would not need double the firepower of a 052D, and a comparison of one 055 to two 052Ds becomes unnecessary in many if not most cases where a 052D or a 055 would be used.


How much less often? And is the decrease in replenishment need sufficient enough tactically and in a large enough number of scenarios to make the PLAN consider it in the design? I don't think anyone here knows the answer to this question.

Build, designed for it, this capacity, power, superior combattants type, category but possible also despite in general more big ships are used for it do with a 055 Naval Diplomacy you don' t do it with a 052D or so few...i don' t say they are not capable combattants ofc but less impressive...

 

[FORBIN]

have you read the forum rules? ... I can sense your life would be very short here

LOL
For rules maybe but if he talk right witout do politic, bias etc... on the fund with few very few infos in fact coz opacity for China Military in relation with government, Policy obviously ; a ridiculous qty in comparison with others countries even with Russia from 2 years more delicate... i get almost all... lets talk can be interesting

 

[FORBIN]

deleted

 

[FORBIN]

Richard Santos said: ↑
I am still not clear on the rationale behind the 055 design. I know fan boys think larger is prouder, and being smaller than then Kongos or Zumwalts is somehow an affront, but I don't see what 055 offers that a somewhat modified 052D can't do for less given the primary strategic needs of China for the next 20 years or so.

It kind of amuses me that Janiz is the only one to like this post lol.


Btw I don't think many people believe 055 being smaller than a Zumwalt is an "affront" -- Zumwalt at full displacement is around 15000 tons. 055 at full displacement in its initial variant will likely approach 13000 tons at full, if that at all.

That doesn't mean it's still an immensely important warship for the Navy.

You can' t say in more you there are not a fanboy environment around China military and it is special never see it for others countries except ofc in general some view art for futur weapons normal but nothing to do, no comparison with China.
Fact are and for evidence Deyno' s post with all the doubts... and you have yet talking about forums with many fanboys.

 

[Blitzo]

You can' t say seriously they don' t have a fanboy environment around China military and it is spacial never see i for others countries ofc some view art for futur weapons but nothing to do with China.
Fact are and for evidence Deyno' s post with all the doubts...

You don't understand why everyone is having an issue with Richard's post.

It isn't the idea that fanboyism exists in PLA watching -- of course it does, just for watching any military, and it varies depending on the forum you are on.

The problem I have, and what I imagine a few others have, is more two fold:
1: more generally, is that SDF compared to some other forums takes some pride in being able to regulate fanboyism for the pursuit of proper discussion and projection and collection of new information to churn out some reliable information. So the insinuation that SDF are populated by fanboys is obviously a backhanded comment that no one is going to take look kindly upon.
2: specifically in the case of 055, I personally am more irritated by poor logic of trying to connect the idea that bigger = what fanboys want, and the insinuation being that fanboys want 055 to be bigger to out compare other ships, and that everyone's conclusion of what 055 is like is simply out of wishful thinking. This ignores essentially the last two years of careful picture analysis, rumour collection, collective critical thinking and the community's overall effort in garnering all this information to produce a likely consensus. And now he comes in and essentially calls all of it BS because only fanboys want to 055 to be a ship bigger than Atago or Zumwalt or something? How does that logic even work? Does he think that everyone is pulling numbers and characteristics out of their backside or something?


And this is even ignoring the bigger issue of generally lacking etiquette, where if he was really actually curious about this issue there are over 200 pages of quite rich content he could go through to learn, and it isn't like he just joined the forum yesterday either. He's been here a while and should know 055 is one of the bigger topics in PLA watching, and definitely for watching the Chinese Navy.


So yes, I think a few shots of hostility in return towards that post of his and his subsequent posts are more than valid and proportionate given the content of his words.

 

[antiterror13]

LOL
For rules maybe but if he talk right witout do politic, bias etc... on the fund with few very few infos in fact coz opacity for China Military in relation with government, Policy obviously ; a ridiculous qty in comparison with others countries even with Russia from 2 years more delicate... i get almost all... lets talk can be interesting

I am totally lost ... what are you trying to say?

 

[FORBIN]

You don't understand why everyone is having an issue with Richard's post.

It isn't the idea that fanboyism exists in PLA watching -- of course it does, just for watching any military, and it varies depending on the forum you are on.

The problem I have, and what I imagine a few others have, is more two fold:
1: more generally, is that SDF compared to some other forums takes some pride in being able to regulate fanboyism for the pursuit of proper discussion and projection and collection of new information to churn out some reliable information. So the insinuation that SDF are populated by fanboys is obviously a backhanded comment that no one is going to take look kindly upon.
2: specifically in the case of 055, I personally am more irritated by poor logic of trying to connect the idea that bigger = what fanboys want, and the insinuation being that fanboys want 055 to be bigger to out compare other ships, and that everyone's conclusion of what 055 is like is simply out of wishful thinking. This ignores essentially the last two years of careful picture analysis, rumour collection, collective critical thinking and the community's overall effort in garnering all this information to produce a likely consensus. And now he comes in and essentially calls all of it BS because only fanboys want to 055 to be a ship bigger than Atago or Zumwalt or something? How does that logic even work? Does he think that everyone is pulling numbers and characteristics out of their backside or something?


And this is even ignoring the bigger issue of generally lacking etiquette, where if he was really actually curious about this issue there are over 200 pages of quite rich content he could go through to learn, and it isn't like he just joined the forum yesterday either. He's been here a while and should know 055 is one of the bigger topics in PLA watching, and definitely for watching the Chinese Navy.


So yes, I think a few shots of hostility in return towards that post of his and his subsequent posts are more than valid and proportionate given the content of his words.

Yes agree on the fund and in general your not " cavalier " your objective not too patriotic in your posts they are objective with an opinion not biased but unfortunately we have several specialists for do propaganda...! which is stupid and in more useless.

And yes it is very surprising much Chinese military subjects are very very sensitive and we go for " scandal" if one say such Chinese weapons, armament, vehicle etc is not good, i don' t see same problems for all others countries, so curious unusual and mainly idiot.

For size of the 055 really incredible these matters of size with others main rivals MSC the size coz mass allow to a ship to be less vulnerable ofc but with actual construction method, technology don't need do a Kirov which in more have a unusual and very cumbersome propulsion.