055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Blitzo]

IMHO yes they do need frigates. A destroyer is too much for things like anti piracy missions, SLOC patrols, small conflicts etc. PLAN is also very weak in ASW and they can bolster their capabilities by having the latest and greatest ASW suite in a new class of frigates to patrol up to the 2nd island chain. Frigates complement destroyers very well especially in times of more serious operations. It frees up the destroyer to concentrate on AAW and surface warfare while frigates do ASW.

No matter what though, any next gen PLAN frigate MUST have a very good robust ASW capabilities. Next gen subs that are being acquired by all the asian countries in pac rim would make ASW a highly crucial element of the PLAN.

Subs are like snipers. They are force multipliers. One sub alone can totally ruin everything and even just knowing there is one lurking around will alter any commanders plan giving the advantage to the opfor.

That's what I would do anywhere if I run PLAN.. ASW, ASW, ASW

To be fair I think the Navy is doing a lot right when it comes to ASW, given the technological limitations they have faced and that ASW is traditionally the most difficult domain of naval warfare. Looking back, we can see the Navy had steadily modernized its capabilities in each domain to an acceptable level before moving onto a subsequent domain. They started with the easiest; anti surface warfare, then they carried on with AAW which spent quite a few years for 054A and then 052C/D to emerge, and in the last few years they've began putting capable ASW sensors aboard a large number of ships and developing new and competitive ASW helicopters and also ASW MPAs at last.

I think all their modern destroyers and frigates have bow sonars and TAS, while the last 7 054As have VDS and 052Ds likely have VDS... not to mention large numbers of 056s with TAS and VDS as well (which is quite rare to see on a ship of such a small size).

If the successor frigate can provide an incremental improvement in the quality of 054A's ASW suite, as well as possibly host two ASW helicopters instead of two, then that would be quite enough for me (alongside other improvements that would bolster ASW which are less worth mentioning).

What is more needed is proliferation of a large number of capable ASW helicopters and ASW MPAs to replace current gap fillers in a systematic way... and then to train, train, train.

Gaining competitiveness in the ASW domain will be more difficult than the previous gains in ASuW and AAW.

 

[Jeff Head]

I would be surprised to see the PLAN build Type 055 in three yards. I would expect a maximum of two, like the Type 052D.

I can see them building both, concurrently for a while. The Type 052D is going to have significant head start, with seven of those already in the water in one form or another, they will probably put another 3-4 in the water before the first Type 055 is commissioned.

I believe the Type 055 is going to be in relative size to the PLAN what the new Zumwalt is to the US Navy...really a cruiser sized vessel...perhaps not quite as big as the Zumwalt though.

And the Zumwalt is now on trials too, with the second to be launched in a few months, and the 3rd already coming together.;



Beautiful ship. They will be powerful, but though they are multi-role, their focus is going to be more fire support.

The function of the Type 055 is going to be more in line with the Ticonderoga Class in the US Navy in terms of function I think. A strong multi role surface combatant, but very strong on anti-air warfare.

Time will tell.

 

[plawolf]

I could see the Navy producing both 055 and 052D in relatively large numbers... though I am still very surprised at the idea that they would consider building 055 at a third shipyard.
I also wonder what that means for future frigate production at HP.

Also, I do think 055 will cost quite a bit more than 052D, because it likely will field more and newer sensors and electronics, and of course more weapons (such as more VLS) as well, all on a newer hull. That isn't to say the Navy won't potentially build a large number of 055s of course, because in the future they may be able to afford a large number of 055s and the capability they bring.

The problem I see with concurrent 052D and 055 production runs is that the two do the same job.

The 055 may have newer sensors and systems than the first 052D, but don't you think the PLAN will also modify the 052D design (if they were committed to a large production run over a long time) as new sensors and systems become available? If they do build 052D and 055s concurrently, would it not make sense to update the later 052Ds with the same generation of sensors and key systems as is now available for the 055?

As such, I don't think there will be a big difference in the cost of sensors and systems. Even if there is, that would underscore the point that the 055s are the better choice, as you are getting newer, and presumably better sensors and systems.

As for VLS costs, well I actually look at it in a different way compared to total procurement cost. Instead, I think cost per VLS is more important and relevant in determining which ship to choose to focus on. That is the cost to add one unit of VLS to the fleet.

The 055 will cost more than the 052D, but it will also have potentially twice as many VLS cells. So long as the cost of ship divided by number of VLS cells carried by the 055 is higher than the 052D, that's better value in my book.

The 052D is pretty much the ultimate evolution of the 052 hull design. It deserves great respect for how much capability they managed to squeeze in such a modest sized hull, and how far they have taken the original hull design. But the physical size and configuration limitations of that hull design means they cannot really hope to take it much further.

The 055 represents the next chapter of PLAN top end surface combat power.

It will start its life at, or beyond the technology and capability level of the 052D, and evolve into a far more capable platform as next gen systems mature and become available.

Ironically, I actually don't think the 055 will be the biggest threat to 052D numbers. Instead, I think that pressure will come from the 054B or whatever the future gen FFG will be called (but I will just refer to it as the 054B until we know an official designation).

The 055 is indisputably the top dog of the PLAN surface fleet, there is no way the 052D can retain that crown. That means it needs to fight for the role of workhorse.

Compared to the 054A, the 052D may well be able to make a convincing argument for a large and long production run to establish itself as the mid-tier workhorse to support the large 054A low tier fleet and compliment a small top tier 055 force.

However, if the 054B has the new CCL VLS as we expect, given both international trends and developments within the PLAN, with new concepts like co-operative engagement becoming standard practice, it seriously hurts the 052D's case.

Co-operative engagement means you do not need expensive AESA radar and battle management systems on every escort ship. The PLAN could easily and happily load long range SAMs on the CCL equipped 054Bs and have them rely on nearby 055s, AWACS, UAVs and other assets for targeting information to function as picket ships.

Such ships can fulfill the role the 052D hopes to take within a PLAN task group at a fraction of the cost of an 052D.

As such, if I was in charge, I would prefer to get more 055s at the expense of 052Ds while relying on 054Bs to make up the shortfall in overall numbers.

I would expect 052D construction to continue as the first 055 is being built and trialed. But once the PLAN is satisfied that the 055 project is a success and delivered as promised, I would expect 052D production to stop and switch over entirely to 055 production.

However, we are still a few years away from that point, and in the meantime, they could easily still pump out enough 054Ds to hit the 12 unit rumoured planned production run that was floated a while back.

 

[no_name]

Big cat is also the guy who's been posting those pics of the 001A construction.

 

[plawolf]

Just wanted to add that my analysis above is based purely on PLAN orders. If China offered the 052D for export to key trusted nations, the production run could be much larger and longer.

The Russian navy could most certainly use quite a few 052D class ships in their fleets for example.

 

[jobjed]

Just wanted to add that my analysis above is based purely on PLAN orders. If China offered the 052D for export to key trusted nations, the production run could be much larger and longer.

The Russian navy could most certainly use quite a few 052D class ships in their fleets for example.

Barring any Russian national security emergency requiring urgent vessel numbers (like China buying Sovremenny vessels), I don't think Russia will supplement her navy with 052Ds seeing as they already have the Project 22350 in service and under construction. The 22350 are smaller than the 052D but their sensors and armament are arranged AEGIS-style with 4-faced APARS and 32 MR-SAM in individual VLS cells. These ships should provide Russia with a good enough foothold in the 21st Century until their Project 23560s materialise, which outclass and will preclude the need for 052Ds.

 

[Blitzo]

The problem I see with concurrent 052D and 055 production runs is that the two do the same job.

The 055 may have newer sensors and systems than the first 052D, but don't you think the PLAN will also modify the 052D design (if they were committed to a large production run over a long time) as new sensors and systems become available? If they do build 052D and 055s concurrently, would it not make sense to update the later 052Ds with the same generation of sensors and key systems as is now available for the 055?


As such, I don't think there will be a big difference in the cost of sensors and systems. Even if there is, that would underscore the point that the 055s are the better choice, as you are getting newer, and presumably better sensors and systems.

If 052D does get a 24 ship production run, I do believe later ships may leverage certain technologies that 055 and later 055 variants will pioneer.

However, 055 is still a substantially larger vessel and thus capable of carrying much more capable sensors with a greater number, as well as more VLS cells... and the larger size of 055 also means it will likely be capable of adopting more advanced propulsion in future when it arrives (namely IEPS) and thus can potentially be equipped with more advanced (and more costly) weapons such as DEWs and railguns which the 052D will likely be unable to adopt due to its smaller size possibly leaving insufficient space for adopting more advanced propulsion.

All of those possibilities together makes me think 055 will be somewhat more expensive than 052D.
I also believe that having some overlapping capabilities between 052D and 055 is sensible, for the sake of redundancy if some ships in a task force are lost during combat actions, and overall flexibility. Of course the question is whether the cost is worth it...

As for VLS costs, well I actually look at it in a different way compared to total procurement cost. Instead, I think cost per VLS is more important and relevant in determining which ship to choose to focus on. That is the cost to add one unit of VLS to the fleet.

The 055 will cost more than the 052D, but it will also have potentially twice as many VLS cells. So long as the cost of ship divided by number of VLS cells carried by the 055 is higher than the 052D, that's better value in my book.

Regarding total ship cost (procurement cost and operational cost), VLS is only one factor to consider I think.
Even if we ignore cost and only look at capability, I think armament should only be one factor as well -- command capabilities, additional sensors, CeC, ELINT, etc are all things that need to be accounted for. And some of those capabilities cannot be "scaled" -- for instance it may be that only an 055 will have the size to host a true facilities for a flag officer and their staff, where a smaller 052D or 054B simply doesn't have the space for it and where hosting only a flag officer and a part of their staff does not produce the same fraction of effectiveness in the same mission.

The 052D is pretty much the ultimate evolution of the 052 hull design. It deserves great respect for how much capability they managed to squeeze in such a modest sized hull, and how far they have taken the original hull design. But the physical size and configuration limitations of that hull design means they cannot really hope to take it much further.

The 055 represents the next chapter of PLAN top end surface combat power.
-snip-

Co-operative engagement means you do not need expensive AESA radar and battle management systems on every escort ship. The PLAN could easily and happily load long range SAMs on the CCL equipped 054Bs and have them rely on nearby 055s, AWACS, UAVs and other assets for targeting information to function as picket ships.

Such ships can fulfill the role the 052D hopes to take within a PLAN task group at a fraction of the cost of an 052D.

I agree that 055 is indisputably going to be the most capable surface combatant of the Chinese Navy going into the next few decades.
I also do agree that "054B" will likely have certain capabilities and parameters that make it competitive with 052D in some ways.

However, I also believe that the Chinese Navy should retain a mid-heavy weight destroyer class like the 052D in significant numbers, and that its role cannot be replaced through recent developments of CeC, simply because I do not think offboard sensors have reached a state of maturity where the Chinese Navy (or indeed, any serious high tech Navy) can afford to
This isn't to say I'm advocating for every surface combatant to be equipped with expensive and powerful active sensors and a large number of VLS cells, but I do think there needs to be a balance in the foreseeable future where a significant number of such ships exist (in the large destroyer and destroyer classes) and are balanced by a lower tier of ships with less capable sensors and less capable armament (in frigate classes).

As such, if I was in charge, I would prefer to get more 055s at the expense of 052Ds while relying on 054Bs to make up the shortfall in overall numbers.

I would expect 052D construction to continue as the first 055 is being built and trialed. But once the PLAN is satisfied that the 055 project is a success and delivered as promised, I would expect 052D production to stop and switch over entirely to 055 production.

Your position does make sense given your premises, but I think my position is also fairly well laid out. I suppose we have slightly different views on the Chinese Navy's most optimal future orbat structure which is underpinned by different views on the viability, capabilities, and costs of certain technologies.

Personally I am fond of a 4 x 24 fleet organization, that can potentially emerge in the mid-late 2020s.
24 054As
24 054Bs
24 052D/Es
24 055/As

For such a surface combatant orbat, assuming 1/3 of such a fleet would be in port in refit or giving crew rest/leave at any one time, that leaves 16 of each type of ship available for operations at any one time.

For a wartime situation against a high tech foe in the western pacific, I think the composition of various forces would be intended to have enough large destroyers:destroyers:frigates to have a ratio of 2:4:4 escorts available for a wartime CSG (2 055/As, 4 052D/Es, 4 054A/Bs), with intention for three such CSGs, to operate mostly in westpac during wartime.
2 055/As, 4 052D/Es, 4 054A/Bs may be overkill for the escort of a single carrier, but given the capability of the potential adversaries which the Chinese Navy faces, I think that such an escort during wartime should be quite necessary.
That leaves 10 055/As, 4 052D/Es, 4 054Bs, 4 054As available for other missions, including escorting task groups of lower importance or in conjunction with a wartime CSG (such as an amphibious group which could attach itself to a CSG to become a combined task force); or conducting blue water SAG missions (especially for the 055/As available), or escorting replenishment ships travelling between bases to a CSG in westpac (which would require less of a surface combatant escort, possibly only 2 frigates or a destroyer), or convoy protection, or even conducting closer in naval base and port defence alongside 056 corvettes and land based airpower.
The "excess" of 055/As leftover which are not part of a CSG compared to other ships is deliberate, and reflects my belief that 055/As may operate somewhat independently or in small SAGs among each other to perform supplementary combat actions in conjunction with the rest of the CSGs (and of course land based air power and 2nd Arty) as part of an overall strategic goal. This may include offensive missions such as conducting LACM strikes, or defensive missions to help support a more forward deployed sensor and AAW net from China's coast to provide more safe space for maneuvre for auxiliary ships.

OTOH, in peacetime (or against a low tech foe in blue water long distance missions), I think the 3 CSGs can afford to have a halved escort force of only 1 055/A, 2 052D/Es, and 2 054A/Bs. That leaves a far larger number of ships available for other missions, including 13 055/As, 10 052D/Es and 10 054A/Bs, and such a fleet would conduct a variety of peacetime missions including supporting a few forward deployed amphibious ready groups, conducting showing the flag missions, and general patrol missions near China's coast and in blue water... of course more free ships also means more ships and more crew could be afforded to have downtime on shore at any one time, which during peacetime can probably be afforded.

PS: the "3 CSGs" of course only reflect active carriers that are capable of performing action... I envision a total carrier fleet of 5-6 carriers of which at least 3 are either at sea or capable of being put immediately to sea.
PPS: I may have gotten carried away with my overall fleet vision, but I am firmly of the belief that a wartime CSG against a high tech opponent should optimally have an escort force of 2 055/As, 4 052D/Es and 4 054A/Bs, which I think would provide a balance of sufficientASW capabilities, AAW capabilities, command capabilities... and would also provide sufficient mutual redundancy support in those capabilities if any friendly escort ships are damaged or destroyed during combat actions.

However, we are still a few years away from that point, and in the meantime, they could easily still pump out enough 054Ds to hit the 12 unit rumoured planned production run that was floated a while back.

I expect 12 052Ds to definitely be built, the question for me is whether they will hit the rumoured 24 unit count..

 

[kriss]

I just don't understand. Why they want to build several type of ships that has the same role (AAW) in large numbers? I know that 054A and 052C is compliment to each other; as long and medium range of layered air defense formation. But 052D has the capability to carry both HQ16 and HQ9. So why build a lot of ships with limited VLS capability like 054A?

This is also apply to the successor of 054A. If they have 055 and 052D, why need new frigates? with universal VLS, both 055 and 052D has already has cover everything that the frigate can do in the future.

054A is a good compliment to larger destroyers as ASW vessel and VLS can carry not only air defense missiles but also anti-sub weaponry like rocket assisted torpedo (ASROC type). Besides there is some situations require you to spread your fleet to a large area and/or take risk, that's when quantitative and cheap frigates will shine.

 

[Jeff Head]

The Type 055 is going to the PLAN's largest and most capable surface combatant.

It will undoubtedly have:

1) Very strong capability for AAW with deep magazines (ie VLS Cell numbers)
2) The ability to use its VLS in a multi-role capability, meaning different types of missiles
3) Have strong ASW capabilities (hopefully with a hanger for two helos)
4) Have strong anti-surface capabilities with a large main gun and ASMs in the VLS
5) Have the strongest, most capable air and surface search radars available.
6) Have very strong C4SI capabilities to act as the command ship for the group.

It is important that each CSG or large ARG have such a vessel it can use to coordinate and even control the overall defense of the group, outside of the air operations of the carrier, and the amphibious/air assault operations of the LHD/LPDs.

Such a vessel can conduct cooperative engagement using the other DDGs who are proving more AAW coverage and closer in ASW coverage, or using the appropriately outfitted FFGs who are out doing the more remote ASW patrols, and who have their own air defense capabilities.

In war time against dangerous foes, you will likely have two of these vessels with a CSG.

In such a role, the FFGs are very important to provide outer ring ASW for the CSG and ARG, and to be able to defend themselves. They are also important to act as flagships for smaller SAGs where you may have several FFGs complimented by LCS type vessels (Type 056).

The very capable, but smaller (smaller than the Type 055), multi-role DDGs (like the Type 052C/D) serve as important AAW assets and ASW assets for the CSG and the ARG, and themselves can become task force flag ships for larger SAGs.

Both the FFG and DDG vessels can also perform individual missions and exercises wherever necessary, knowing that they have decent capabilities all around to defend themselves or whatever they are tasked to operate with.

So...having those large, cruiser-like vessels is important and it really adds the depth and capstone capabilities to the defense of large, capitol task forces. Those capabilities are important, but also expensive...and you do not need them for all of those activities I just named that the FFGs and the other DDGs can perform.

It is a strategy that provides multi-oriole capabilities in depth, to be applied as necessary, allowing those capabilities to be scaled as necessary, depending on need.

In this particular aspect of their naval operations, the PLAN seems to be adopting very similar overall tactics to the US Navy.

Why? Because they have observed them for a long time and realize their value if you can afford it. Apparently the PRC has decided that it can afford it.

Now, the PLAN will have its own unique plans and missions, and exercises to add to this, but I think this is the basic strategy...and it is a good one.

 

[SpicySichuan]

I have been to HP, and I don't think the halls are big enough to house 055s (23 meters wide).

The function of the Type 055 is going to be more in line with the Ticonderoga Class in the US Navy in terms of function I think. A strong multi role surface combatant, but very strong on anti-air warfare.

If the 055 Block IIs are equipped with electromagnetic rail guns, would the 055s be similar to the DDG-1000?