054B/new generation frigate

TK3600

Colonel
Registered Member
Let me put it this way.

054B is noticeably larger than 054A, but has the same amount of armament. The original thought that I had for 054B is that it needs to have a new propulsion to sustain faster speed than 054A (go at 29 knots) and more important to provide the cabin spacing and such needed for long deployment. And given the larger size, that like means it is designed with more cabin comfort in mind. So, you have a larger platform but without more firepower. It doesn't make sense to have a platform like this if it isn't equipped with a more powerful propulsion that can allow for future upgrades in power consumption. So, what is exactly the point?

Why don't you just build more 054A if you need more number? If you don't need more frigates right away, then why not wait for a couple of more years for when your 9.5 MW diesel engine and IEPS tech + latest high discharge battery pack tech become ready?

I look at FREMM, it uses CODLAG with 32MW GT+ 4 2.2MW diesel engine. So, just 40-41MW combined power. if you have 36-38MW pure diesel IEPS with battery storage, that is actually plenty of power for probably 29 knots and you can sustain several MW for sensors and weapons.
It seems to me PLAN is going for the European school. Frigates as heavy long range patrol boats.

Otherwise if the rumor of fujian being 29.5 knot at combat, 054B is actually fine. Not future proof but adequete.

I speculate PLAN see frigates as less and less of a fleet units now it has over production of destroyers.

Destroyers: protect CV, tip of spear.

Frigates: Split into 2 tiers, home patrol and long range patrol types.

Alternatively 054B is copying air force. Build the thing first, replace engine after the engine problem solved?
 

tphuang

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Most likely answer is that new propulsion systems are some combination of immature and/or too expensive for PLAN tastes. And 054A->054B is obviously a much smaller jump compared to 053H3 because that was quite simply a hopelessly obsolete design. Huge leaps are possible when you are way behind the curve. Needless to say, the situation today is very different.

It remains to be seen whether 054B is a transition or production class, but both have reasonable justifications. Depends on how conservative PLAN is feeling. My guess is they believe they've squeezed all they can out of 054A, so they need to move on now. And yes, 054B will be fine in 15 years. There is always a place for less advanced hulls, just like how PLAN continues to operate many such hulls today. Not every mission requires the latest and greatest in cutting-edge surface combantants. Perfect should never be the enemy of good—or at least, good enough.
At this point, it doesn’t offer enough capability jump over 054A. So if 32 cell VLS, 27 knots and hq10 is sufficient for PLAN in 15 years, why don’t they just build more 054A?

Why build a larger and more expensive platform that does essentially the same task?

if PLAN is upsizing the hull, then it clearly want some option to expand its mission set. It wants a platform that is not maxed out. Maybe a lo option to 055 on longer deployment. At some point, PLAN may want a smaller warship that can go 32 knots since it will have nuclear carriers. And then what?

It seems to me quite silly to go with a new hull and still use a relatively under powered propulsion thats not optimized for modern warfare.
 

totenchan

Junior Member
Registered Member
At this point, it doesn’t offer enough capability jump over 054A. So if 32 cell VLS, 27 knots and hq10 is sufficient for PLAN in 15 years, why don’t they just build more 054A?

Why build a larger and more expensive platform that does essentially the same task?

if PLAN is upsizing the hull, then it clearly want some option to expand its mission set. It wants a platform that is not maxed out. Maybe a lo option to 055 on longer deployment. At some point, PLAN may want a smaller warship that can go 32 knots since it will have nuclear carriers. And then what?

It seems to me quite silly to go with a new hull and still use a relatively under powered propulsion thats not optimized for modern warfare.
Sure seems to me like you've invented a role for the 54B, decided that its (unclear) capabilities were not fit for purpose, and wrote if off on your own. The radar upgrades on their own make it worth producing over the 54A IMO. What the 54A had was and is miserably outdated for modern combat, the 54B's new radar at least should give it a fighting chance.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
At this point, it doesn’t offer enough capability jump over 054A. So if 32 cell VLS, 27 knots and hq10 is sufficient for PLAN in 15 years, why don’t they just build more 054A?

Why build a larger and more expensive platform that does essentially the same task?

The DDG(X) design is talking about future-proofing for lasers of 150KW or 600KW, to replace the Phalanx CIWS and SeaRAM.

A 600KW laser implies a total power draw of 3.6MW.

We can see that the propulsion diesels have been upgraded on the Type-54B. We also see the latest Arleigh Burkes have an upgrade to their 3 electricity generators from 9MW to 12MW

So it would be reasonable to assume the Type-054B has also increased electricity generation capacity for future upgrades.

EDIT

Discussion below on a 20MW upgrade on the upgraded Type-052DL and 4MW on the Type-054A


if PLAN is upsizing the hull, then it clearly want some option to expand its mission set. It wants a platform that is not maxed out. Maybe a lo option to 055 on longer deployment. At some point, PLAN may want a smaller warship that can go 32 knots since it will have nuclear carriers. And then what?

It seems to me quite silly to go with a new hull and still use a relatively under powered propulsion thats not optimized for modern warfare.

The number of fast frigates required for an ASW role in CSGs is very limited. Call it a total of 9 ships by 2040, depending on the assumptions. The vast majority of Frigates being produced just don't need that speed for their missions.
 
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TK3600

Colonel
Registered Member
I have been thinking about the limited improvement of 054B. Is it a problem? I think no, along with many here. It is a solid iterative improvement over 054A. It is a strong design competitive with the best world has to offer. Some frigates carry bigger missiles, but that is not going to make them superior to 054B at doing what a frigate should be doing. So the problem was never it is a bad ship, it just feels rather lacking of a leap by China standard.

It improves on 054A but how much value the improvement is in question. The radar system improved quite a bit, but ultimate how much it translate to effectiveness is in question. A battleship with twice the armor is not twice as good if it sink equally fast to a torpedo bomber. Will 054B's much better radar lead to much better effectiveness? Hard to say but maybe not. It is still almost as vulnerable to air strikes. The radar improved because the tech improved, and we update the existing design. This is very much a iterative improvement. Which is to say the goal was never to impress, but to just build a similar ship with current tech standard. Even though the ship look very different which may give impression of a leap like F-4 to F-15, it is more of equivalent to J-11 to J-16.

Reflecting on this reveals a fundamental issue of Chinese naval development:
China has caught up to west, the low effort catch up improvements are over. We can no longer expect leaps like in the past. Merely having similar design with updated tech will never impress us or change dynamic of naval warfare. There needs to be drastic innovation like in the air force. Like J-20 to J-36. This requires risk taking and innovation, something navy seem less interested in.

Because end of the day China do not have to risk innovate over enemy, it is happy to just scale up its undersized navy. Why risk delaying a program with ambitious undertaking when number is still the priority? China is the biggest trading nation. It deserves the a navy as large as its share of global maritime trade. With that in mind, the current navy is tiny. Impressive looking yes, but severely undersized. And this may be why they care less about one upping the opponents, scaling up number at comparable quality remain the priority. I am afraid we have to dial down our expectations in general from now on.
 
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Albatross

New Member
Registered Member
I have to add, just because it has the same amount of VLS, doesn't mean the combat capability hasn't improved. Better sensors, EW, HHQ-10 all add up to a form a much better combatant. Damage control is also likely improved with more space.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Let me put it this way.

054B is noticeably larger than 054A, but has the same amount of armament. The original thought that I had for 054B is that it needs to have a new propulsion to sustain faster speed than 054A (go at 29 knots) and more important to provide the cabin spacing and such needed for long deployment. And given the larger size, that like means it is designed with more cabin comfort in mind. So, you have a larger platform but without more firepower. It doesn't make sense to have a platform like this if it isn't equipped with a more powerful propulsion that can allow for future upgrades in power consumption. So, what is exactly the point?

Why don't you just build more 054A if you need more number? If you don't need more frigates right away, then why not wait for a couple of more years for when your 9.5 MW diesel engine and IEPS tech + latest high discharge battery pack tech become ready?

I look at FREMM, it uses CODLAG with 32MW GT+ 4 2.2MW diesel engine. So, just 40-41MW combined power. if you have 36-38MW pure diesel IEPS with battery storage, that is actually plenty of power for probably 29 knots and you can sustain several MW for sensors and weapons.

The most obvious and easiest answer is that crew endurance is the key limiting factor in the 054A design.

If the intended wartime primary role of the 054A/B class is as I summarised, then these ships are not going to expect to see heavy combat on a regular basis. Instead they are adding the most value by being able to maintain a survivable, persistent and unpredictable patrol presence throughout the eastern pacific to keep hostile naval and air forces far from the mainland coast.

As such, magazine depth is not a primary consideration while crew performance becomes more important as it’s about being able to maintain high alertness levels and focus for prolonged periods of time. This is where the existing 054A is showing it’s shortcomings with its well-known lower spec crew comfort and ship facilities provision.

The way I see the 054B is that the PLAN have concluded that the 054A is just about near perfect for their operational needs, with the only area in need of improvement being on the crew comfort side.

While the 054B is indeed significantly larger than the 054A, I’m willing to bet that the price tag difference is at best marginal, and would not be proportional to the displacement change.

Rather than seeing that as the 054B being disappointingly conservative, I would instead say that’s a massive positive in just how well the 054A design met the PLAN’s requirements both in the past and into the foreseeable future.

All of the new fancy systems like IEPS, energy weapons and the like are nice to have, but will come with a significant price tag. So why do you want to massively inflate the prices of your shield fleet to add a load of bells and whistles they don’t really need and are highly unlikely to ever use?

It would be far better to instead invest in such system for future DDGs and CGs that will accompany the carriers. The much larger hull sizes of DDGs and CGs will also make the integration of such next gen systems much easier/cheaper and with fewer opportunity costs.
 

Gloire_bb

Major
Registered Member
Let me put it this way.

054B is noticeably larger than 054A, but has the same amount of armament. The original thought that I had for 054B is that it needs to have a new propulsion to sustain faster speed than 054A (go at 29 knots) and more important to provide the cabin spacing and such needed for long deployment. And given the larger size, that like means it is designed with more cabin comfort in mind. So, you have a larger platform but without more firepower. It doesn't make sense to have a platform like this if it isn't equipped with a more powerful propulsion that can allow for future upgrades in power consumption. So, what is exactly the point?

Why don't you just build more 054A if you need more number? If you don't need more frigates right away, then why not wait for a couple of more years for when your 9.5 MW diesel engine and IEPS tech + latest high discharge battery pack tech become ready?

I look at FREMM, it uses CODLAG with 32MW GT+ 4 2.2MW diesel engine. So, just 40-41MW combined power. if you have 36-38MW pure diesel IEPS with battery storage, that is actually plenty of power for probably 29 knots and you can sustain several MW for sensors and weapons.
(1)Armament of 054A is generally enough for a frigate. Problem isn't armament, problem is sensors which guide it. Displacement visibly went into giving more sensors.
(2)Smaller ships are almost unavoidably cramped. This doesn't necessarily mean living quarters are bad(though later ships tend to offer more, arrange them more conveniently, and so on). but it almost guarantees space around functional systems is bad. This means, for instance, that not only said systems are harder to service at sea, but also it means that fixing even relatively solvable issues may require drydock.
(3)There's also always practical experience of weapon employment or sensor use(. It isn't about just armament - it's also about what seastate it can be used at, and then more and more specific nuances - sea is a tough mistress, and in general - displacement is the currency used to please her.

(4)054A is generally going towards obsolecence. Don't get me wrong - it has all the right hard capabilities(those are generally established almost 50 years ago). The problem is not what explodes, but what guides whatever explodes.
It's radar suit is generally 2000s, even with new better(but still rather small) targeting arrays. Main ship radar is type 382, which is, maybe an updated, but late 1980s Soviet design at its core - and not even top line one at that.
How does this capability works v. modern air threats? We saw infinite number of times now, how Buks, Khordads and other broadly related SAMs fail to spot modern threats and get destroyed. We even saw how Grigorovich class frigates (half sisters to 054A, btw) were...no, not hit, but just barely avoided damage, or were splashed, and as a result retired into protected harbors. 382 and HHQ-16 are not especially different.
Perhaps 054A has spherical EODAS with full merged display in CIC, like is becoming good standard nowadays(like sudden drone ambush anyone)? No, it doesn't even has a fully integrated BMS in Aegis sense.
Perhaps we want non-notional and actually deterring ASW capability? First, larger hull will outright tow larger things(like, VDS/TDS) better, at worse sea states, while suffering less hull stress and wear. Then it would be nice to have our diesels rafted. It is a major change, and if you do it seriously enough - it may seriously make submarine reconsider its life choices, as well as significantly improve your own listening capability(digital filtering of own parasitic sounds is not the same as just not being noisy in the first place). But it's new hull, and, of course, displacement. You may of course not, but then just be ready that you and your convoy will get sunk from "should've been safe" radius.

(5)ships can sustain power and cruise, it isn't like you're chosing where to rerout power a-la star wars. The problem is how you do it - different ships, per their roles, are built for different roles. Diesel ships cruise well at moderate speeds, diesel ships still can achieve high speeds, no problem. The question is for how long, and how truly combat capable ship is while diesels go full throttle. Powerful longterm vibration is nice for a certain kind of toys, not for electronics nor the crews.

And all of it is displacement, displacement, displacement. 054a wasn't armed any less than now dead Constellation, and against older/simpler threats it is more or less an equal to her. Against more modern threats(and it fully applies to rear areas as well), it isn't one, at all.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The most obvious and easiest answer is that crew endurance is the key limiting factor in the 054A design.

If the intended wartime primary role of the 054A/B class is as I summarised, then these ships are not going to expect to see heavy combat on a regular basis. Instead they are adding the most value by being able to maintain a survivable, persistent and unpredictable patrol presence throughout the eastern pacific to keep hostile naval and air forces far from the mainland coast.

It's not realistic for the Type-054A/B to survive in the Eastern Pacific in a high-intensity conflict.

Nor for any Chinese Navy surface vessel, unless there is accompanying air cover.
 
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