052C/052D Class Destroyers


Staedler

New Member
Registered Member
The French Aquitaine class is 6000 tons displacement and has 32 MW (CODLOG) propulsion power at high speed. Its top speed is 27.5 knots.

The Horizon class frigates are 7,050mt displacement and have 46,6MW turbine power (CODOG) for high speed dashes. Their top speed is 29 knots.

I think the vanilla 052D is in the vicinity of 7,700 mt. The stretched version should be around 8,000 mt. Given that they have essentially the same propulsion as the Type 052B, I find the 28kt top speed plausible.
I would have estimated 6000t @ 32MW to be ~27kn and 7,050t @ 46.6 MW to be ~29kn.
Based on just the examples you gave, 7,700-8,000t @ 60MW only having a top speed of 28kn isn't very likely.

As compared to the Horizon-class, it would have 9-13% more tonnage but also 29% more power. That would imply it is 1kn slower than the Horizon-class despite that difference in power. 29% more power, even with 13% more tonnage, is quite significant. I would fully expect it to be at least 2kn faster than the Horizon with that differential. For it to be slowed to 28kn with 60MW, I think full displacement would need to be above 10,000t.

AFAIK 052D is a CODOG system which means we can just estimate it as a geared transmission system. That makes it even harder for it to hit only 28kn max. The propulsion efficiency ranges for the rest are just too well known. For example, a geared transmission is typically estimated at around 96% and for 052D to be a 28kn'er, that would have to be around 75%. Or for the turbine system to be only ~30% efficient compared to a baseline 38% from LM2500+ which is worse than a LM1500 from the 1955-1960 which hit 33%.

30kn max I could kind of believe. 28kn max is a bridge too far.


You don't have to take my word for it, just try your hand at the estimation formulas like Holtrop-Mennen, Taylor's, etc. and include the appropriate corrections.
 
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Staedler

New Member
Registered Member
As an addendum (since I can't edit my post anymore) here are some ship data from the Interwar/WW2 period:

Deutschland-class cruisers; 11000-14500t, 40MW for designed 26kn. Hit 28kn @ 36MW on trials. You could then subtract a knot or two for service speeds with moderate to heavy fouling.
County-class cruisers; 9750t-13450t, 60MW for 31.5kn
Minotaur-class cruisers; 8800-11130t, 54MW for 31.5kn
Omaha-class cruisers; ~7150t, 67MW for 35kn
Atlanta-class cruiser; 6800-7500t, 56MW for 33.6kn on trials.
La Galissonniere-class cruisers; 7600t-9120t, 63MW for 31kn designed, 35kn on trials in basically lightship conditions. Still made 32kn by end of the war when displacement increased to 10,850t.
Nagato-class battleships; 33000-39000t, 60MW for 26.5kn designed before reconstruction. Hit 26.7kn @ 63.8MW on trials. 39000-46700t after reconstruction, hit 24.98kn @ 61.4MW on trials.
North Carolina-class battleships; 37200-45500t , 90MW for 28kn.

I use WW2 examples because they spanned all shapes and sizes in terms of design and none of their details are classified or have potential misinformation in them. Makes them quite good references for hydrodynamic estimates. Probably the best we have as outsiders to the military / design bureaus.

These are usually geared steam turbines, but the efficiency differences are honestly not that large. From what I've read, steam turbines may range in efficiency from 33-48%, but 43% requires inlet temperatures above 600 C. In WW2, just the boilers are typically only going to 454 C, let alone the inlet. So it's more likely the steam turbine efficiencies in WW2 are about 40% or lower, which isn't that far off from the 38% of the LM2500+. Certainly nothing like the 30 vs 38% efficiency gap I've mentioned in the previous post.

It really isn't difficult for warships to hit 28kn with 60MW of power. You need to start approach battleship level displacements to have serious issues with that power. Probably need to be 055-sized with 60MW to reach only 28kn max.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
I would have estimated 6000t @ 32MW to be ~27kn and 7,050t @ 46.6 MW to be ~29kn.
Based on just the examples you gave, 7,700-8,000t @ 60MW only having a top speed of 28kn isn't very likely.

As compared to the Horizon-class, it would have 9-13% more tonnage but also 29% more power. That would imply it is 1kn slower than the Horizon-class despite that difference in power. 29% more power, even with 13% more tonnage, is quite significant. I would fully expect it to be at least 2kn faster than the Horizon with that differential. For it to be slowed to 28kn with 60MW, I think full displacement would need to be above 10,000t.

AFAIK 052D is a CODOG system which means we can just estimate it as a geared transmission system. That makes it even harder for it to hit only 28kn max. The propulsion efficiency ranges for the rest are just too well known. For example, a geared transmission is typically estimated at around 96% and for 052D to be a 28kn'er, that would have to be around 75%. Or for the turbine system to be only ~30% efficient compared to a baseline 38% from LM2500+ which is worse than a LM1500 from the 1955-1960 which hit 33%.

30kn max I could kind of believe. 28kn max is a bridge too far.


You don't have to take my word for it, just try your hand at the estimation formulas like Holtrop-Mennen, Taylor's, etc. and include the appropriate corrections.
Perhaps the better way to approach is to start with the reports that the Type 052B has a top speed of 30
knots. It has effectively the same propulsion output as the Type 052D but displaces just 6,500 mt.

What speed would you estimate for a 7,700-8,000 mt ship based on these parameters?
 

Staedler

New Member
Registered Member
Perhaps the better way to approach is to start with the reports that the Type 052B has a top speed of 30
knots. It has effectively the same propulsion output as the Type 052D but displaces just 6,500 mt.

What speed would you estimate for a 7,700-8,000 mt ship based on these parameters?
I wouldn't estimate anything off of 30kn because the numbers would clearly be nonsense. It would be the same as what the RN said about the IJN Mogami class. "They must be (..) lying." That or they mean 30kn just like they mean the 055 is a 10000t ship, i.e. 10000t class, so 30kn class ship.

6,500t with 60MW? I'ld say conservatively probably 32kn top speed. On that basis, 8,000t with the same propulsion would be 30kn top speed.

You yourself gave the example of the Aquitaine at 6000t and 32MW with top speed of 27.5kn. 60 MW is almost double the power. Do you expect 8,000t, just 33% more tonnage, to just slightly edge it out with 28kn top while having double the propulsive power? I think the only way that makes sense is if the ship is actually over 10000t rather than 8000t.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
I wouldn't estimate anything off of 30kn because the numbers would clearly be nonsense. It would be the same as what the RN said about the IJN Mogami class. "They must be (..) lying." That or they mean 30kn just like they mean the 055 is a 10000t ship, i.e. 10000t class, so 30kn class ship.

6,500t with 60MW? I'ld say conservatively probably 32kn top speed. On that basis, 8,000t with the same propulsion would be 30kn top speed.

You yourself gave the example of the Aquitaine at 6000t and 32MW with top speed of 27.5kn. 60 MW is almost double the power. Do you expect 8,000t, just 33% more tonnage, to just slightly edge it out with 28kn top while having double the propulsive power? I think the only way that makes sense is if the ship is actually over 10000t rather than 8000t.
That’s a fair point. However, the QC-280 have 28MW power output, for a total of 56MW. I’m not sure if that’s brake or shaft power.
 

SquireAU

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Perhaps the better way to approach is to start with the reports that the Type 052B has a top speed of 30
knots. It has effectively the same propulsion output as the Type 052D but displaces just 6,500 mt.

What speed would you estimate for a 7,700-8,000 mt ship based on these parameters?
I did some digging into upgrades that have been made to the propulsion, and I think we can expect that the power output of the gas turbines used in the 052D has been increased from the 052C.

"China did not meet the simple imitation, but made greater technical improvements on the basis of UGT-25000. For example, Chinese researchers installed an intermediate cooler between the low-pressure press and the UGT25000 high-pressure compressor, which improved the output power of the gas turbine, and the new improved model. The number is named QC280 gas turbine."

Although power output is said to be comparable to the latest LM2500+, the turbines are still said to take up more space and lag behind the latest UK turbines. All versions installed in the 052D and 055 destroyers are said to achieve 30MW. In contrast, earlier versions had either 24.6MW or 26.2MW.

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This source states that the 052D would be capable of up to 32kn and has 67,000 shp using gas turbines and 10420 shp using the two diesel engines:

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Max cruising speed on diesel is commonly stated as 15kn, I don't think there's much disagreement on that.
 

Staedler

New Member
Registered Member
I did some digging into upgrades that have been made to the propulsion, and I think we can expect that the power output of the gas turbines used in the 052D has been increased from the 052C.

"China did not meet the simple imitation, but made greater technical improvements on the basis of UGT-25000. For example, Chinese researchers installed an intermediate cooler between the low-pressure press and the UGT25000 high-pressure compressor, which improved the output power of the gas turbine, and the new improved model. The number is named QC280 gas turbine."

Although power output is said to be comparable to the latest LM2500+, the turbines are still said to take up more space and lag behind the latest UK turbines. All versions installed in the 052D and 055 destroyers are said to achieve 30MW. In contrast, earlier versions had either 24.6MW or 26.2MW.

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This source states that the 052D would be capable of up to 32kn and has 67,000 shp using gas turbines and 10420 shp using the two diesel engines:

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Max cruising speed on diesel is commonly stated as 15kn, I don't think there's much disagreement on that.
24.6MW-26.2MW per turbine should indeed result in roughly 30kn speed for the 052C. All of that seems to check out.
If 052D only had this 052C level of power at 50MW, 28kn would sound about right. If it has been upgraded to achieve 30MW per turbine, 32kn speed makes sense.

The numbers fit well enough that I have to wonder if the Whale Shark is using these older turbine versions and that's why it's listed as 28kn max.


And yea, 10420shp for 15kn at 6500-8000t sounds about right and that sort of cruising speed is pretty standard anyways.
 

by78

Lieutenant General
Screen captures from an information video on the export version of 052D.

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52506587732_e1881ab66e_k.jpg
52507543765_80fdd594b0_k.jpg

52507343954_6aba46de4d_k.jpg
 

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