00X/004 future nuclear CATOBAR carrier thread

5unrise

Junior Member
Registered Member
Civility is all well and good, but it comes second to credibility in my book. There is certainly no shortage of fools—in any language—going around making wild claims without anything close to the required evidence. In my personal opinion, the mods are far too lenient when it comes to tolerating such nonsense. I can go to many places to read nationalist nonsense—again, in any language—but there are only a few places with as much value-add as (some) SDF contributors.

Again this is just my opinion, but if folks have nothing of substance to contribute then they should just learn how to shut up and listen. And no, speaking Mandarin does not qualify as any special talent; there are well over a billion of us, and plenty here who don't editorialize their translations beyond all reason.
I haven't made up my mind on whether civility or credibility is more important for a moderator. For most forums, I would lean towards the former, although given the nature of SDF, I can see how this could be an exception. Other than that, I don't disagree with what you said.
What I like you to consider is that there is actually no trade-off between civility and credibility. One does not come at the expense of another, and you can be civil and credible at the same time. The language and actions of moderators impact on the reputation of forums, for better or worse.
Other than that, again I stress I don't disagree with what you said.
 

lcloo

Captain
To be fair to moderators, did they write in their capacity as moderator? Or did they write as just a member? The last 12 months or so I have seen quite alot of defiance against moderators.

The level of moderation here is much better than elsewhere, example a certain South Asian forum which I am a member but I hardly post over there anymore because of bad moderation.

Moderators are human too, sometimes they do show bias and made mistakes, just as many of us. Just a normal human nature. We just have to understand that.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I think all users, moderators included, should try to use respectful and conciliatory language, particularly if those they are speaking with adopts that approach. I don't really agree with how certain moderators have posted in recent months, particularly as they should be setting an example of good behavior.
It could be a second language issue, in which case I am more understanding, but we should be at least self aware of how we may be perceived.


Agreed and I pressume you are referring to me! But therefore please point towards a post or posts that you rated as an insult or offensive?

However again - and here my point stands firmly! - what's the bigger problem: A poster who repeatedly and after several kind reminders still posts random rumours - and I directly mean not those by the well-known credible posters on Weibo, but just internet gossip - as facts or a moderator, who indeed posts in a harsher tone to keep the level within this forum, but who was "respectful and conciliatory language" in the beginning but then lost his temper due to a stubborn poster??

My point is not that he should not post what he did, but to point that this all is still unproven yet and at best a likely rumour, he however insists to post it as given facts!

It's almost like Minnie Chan's claims in 2019, the PLAAF would already operate 200+ J-20 which was THEN definitely wrong and now when there are indeed more to claim "look, she was correct already years ago!"
 

Nx4eu

Junior Member
Registered Member
I think some forum discourse is fine and dandy, but please don't go around spreading such beliefs on other platforms that 004 is definitively under construction now, or hyping up the public about mass producing carriers because the CSSC account probably ran by an intern reacted with dog emotes to a comment on making big dumplings. Just typing that out into a sentence sounded ridiculous. I think there is a certain level of responsibility on not jumping to conclusions and that's what Deino needs to uphold for his credibility. I think all forum members share a level of responsibility to not take all information at face value and not jump to conclusions. The internet nowadays seems to be filled with misinformation, please don't add to the garbage pile.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I think all users, moderators included, should try to use respectful and conciliatory language, particularly if those they are speaking with adopts that approach. I don't really agree with how certain moderators have posted in recent months, particularly as they should be setting an example of good behavior.
It could be a second language issue, in which case I am more understanding, but we should be at least self aware of how we may be perceived.

What is defined as conciliatory is entirely dependent on what one views as "reasonable" -- aka what the overton window for making reasonable speculation, projections, and claims are.

Speaking as a member of this forum that started as a lurker in the mid 2000s before making an account in 2008, the reason I joined this forum was entirely because at the time (and into the 2010s) the forum had a relatively strict effort to contain its overton window in terms of holding back the abject enthusiasm of members/individual new to PLA watching, or holding back the fanboyism of longer standing members who have no ability to perceive reasonable from unreasonable, as well as slapping down members who display consistently illogical arguments.


That discipline is what has kept SDF relevant over the years, even as the forum has grown and as new developments has emerged -- it is the active war against "overselling" and "fantastical predictions" and "overenthusiasm" and other similar "clickbait"-esque coded attitudes, that makes SDF still a semi-useful resource, rather than becoming a laughing stock of nationalists and chauvinists.


The above is me writing as a member rather than a moderator.
But in the past I've also written similar sentiments in moderator blue or red, and I've made no secret of how it would benefit SDF and thus the entire enterprise of English language PLA watching overall, if people strove to be less emotional and more stoic.
 

5unrise

Junior Member
Registered Member
Agreed and I pressume you are referring to me! But therefore please point towards a post or posts that you rated as an insult or offensive?

However again - and here my point stands firmly! - what's the bigger problem: A poster who repeatedly and after several kind reminders still posts random rumours - and I directly mean not those by the well-known credible posters on Weibo, but just internet gossip - as facts or a moderator, who indeed posts in a harsher tone to keep the level within this forum, but who was "respectful and conciliatory language" in the beginning but then lost his temper due to a stubborn poster??

My point is not that he should not post what he did, but to point that this all is still unproven yet and at best a likely rumour, he however insists to post it as given facts!

It's almost like Minnie Chan's claims in 2019, the PLAAF would already operate 200+ J-20 which was THEN definitely wrong and now when there are indeed more to claim "look, she was correct already years ago!"
I did not refer to any individual in that post, so please take it as a general statement. If I were to make a targeted statement, a public thread would be the wrong place to do so.
 

Heresy

New Member
Registered Member
The appropriate translation for 废话 would be "no sh*t".

Yeah, that would be a good translation, now that I think about it.

There are may things they can build from available dockyard space, a lot more DDGs, FDGs, new class of corvettes, more LHDs, unmanned platforms, etc. Now I agree with you that for a country with the money, shipbuilding capacity, and nuclear power industry of China, building CV(N)s doesn't necessarily have to be a monumental undertaking as it is with every other country in history, but it needs to be weighed against other options like building the aforementioned ships or even resources for building subs which I think should be priority number one. The resources required to build one additional CV(N) can build quite a few other platforms which may be more cost effective.

Not all dockyards are the same. Using a CV-capable dockyard to build relatively small unmanned platforms, or even FFGs would be a waste frankly. Now they could absolutely choose to build LHDs, but it's been shown time and again that "light carriers" and CVE's are actually less effective and less capable per ton compared to a full-size fleet carrier in the 85,000 ton range or larger. Finally, we look at the possibility of more DDGs. Again, absolutely possible, but are an additional handful Type 055s and Type 052DL's really going to make nearly as large an impact as another CV at this point?

Like @HailingTX20 said, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. The CSSC statement is frankly quite vague. All it really says is they're building a lot of things, the "big dumpling" could really be anything. All ships are pretty big relative to say tanks or aircrafts, so it could really be referring to any type of ship. It doesn't even have to be military vessels. It's not impossible for China to be building 2 or even 3 carriers at once, but I think it's entirely right to temper the enthusiasm there a bit.

Ordinarily, it would be prudent to assume that the dockyard space that will be vacated by Fujian when she's fully completed would be filled by some sort of large civilian cargo ship or tanker. But with news of a recent downturn in civilian ship orders for China, something the size of a CV would be able to occupy dockworkers for quite a few years.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Back to topic. Was the photo of EMAL modules near the dock confirmed?

Can you rephrase your question, or add some more clarity?

Which "EMAL modules near the dock" and which photo? And what do you think the photo may or may not confirm?

(E.g.: post the photo, and write a few sentences about what you think it depicts and the consequence etc)
 
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