SDF Aerospace and Aerodynamics Corner

Engineer

Major
yes My statements are pure fallacies.

I agree you say only fallacies, you only say fallacy after fallacy, that is right

LOL!

Nope. This is what I have said:
My statements are pure facts, not fallacies.

And indeed, all that I have stated are from books and papers and are facts. My statements that you are using fallacies are also pure facts, because I can back up my statements. For example, your statement above is what's called
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and is a fallacy, because you are inventing a statement and then accuse me of saying it to misrepresent my position. This is a weak behavior, but I expect nothing more you who keep on arguing for the sake of arguing despite facts have shown you to be wrong. :rolleyes:

Also, just because you are using fallacies, that doesn't mean others are doing the same.
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of your own traits on to others doesn't actually mean other people have the same faults as you do. It is nothing more than another attempt at diverting attention.

Note:

The limiting mass flow rate is directly proportional to the stagnation pressure, and inversely proportional to the square root of the stagnation temperature. Thus, if more work is taken out of the flow by the turbine per unit mass, the stagnation pressure drops sharply, and the mass flow and thus the thrust drop sharply as well.
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This only says that inlet performance is directly related to pressure recovery. It doesn't alter the fact that in supercritical condition, the flow velocity at the throat becomes supersonic. You claimed air at the throat cannot move faster than Mach 1, but I proved that this claim of yours is wrong just like your other claims -- with your own source:
oZFoL.png


As the diagram indicated by the small circle, pointed at by the arrow with the flow velocity written right beside, the flow velocity at the throat can indeed by higher than Mach 1. You made the erroneous claim primarily because you are lacking knowledge in the subject, but also because you argue for the sake of arguing by disagreeing with everything that I have said.

Ultimately, what directly relates to the mass flow is the area of normal shock. When the throat area is too narrow and the normal shock there has an area which is insufficient for the flow condition, supercritical condition occurs where the normal shock shifts downstream to seek a bigger area. This is said by the following source:
0fVyi.png


Further narrowing of the throat would simply cause the shock to shift more, having no effects on the area of normal shock. Hence, the throat area does not control the mass flow.

Since we have established that the flow velocity at the throat can go supersonic, then it means air just flow faster to compensate for the narrower passage as according to
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, verifying what I have said and shown you to be incorrect



The effects of inlet design and engine operation on total pressure recovery are expressed in an inlet performance plot called a recovery cane. The figure shows inlet recovery for a supersonic external compression inlet plotted versus mass flow ratio at a single free stream Mach number. The mass flow ratio is the engine mass flow rate divided by the maximum mass flow rate that can be captured by the inlet. On the schematic at the bottom of the upper figure, we show a typical capture streamline as the thin horizontal line upstream of the inlet lip. The recovery is always less than 1.0 because of shock losses and boundary layer losses. The knee of the curve is labeled critical and at this maximum mass flow ratio, the terminal normal shock sits at the cowl lip.

The underlined portion of your citation does not prove your claim. Maximum mass flow ratio does not mean maximum mass flow. Maximum mass flow ratio in the context of the above citation means there is no spillage, as simple as that.


For the lower mass flow ratios, labeled sub Critical・ the normal shock sits off of the cowl lip and excess mass is spilled around the cowl. At the lowest mass flow ratio the inlet is in buzz, an unsteady condition in which the normal moves at high frequency in the streamwise direction. For the Super Critical・portion of the curve, the normal shock is pulled inside the cowl. Super critical mass flow ratio remains a constant because the mass flow through the cowl lip plane is fixed by supersonic conditions .

Right. The mass flow in the free-stream is equal to the mass flow through the capture area, hence constant mass flow ratio. However, the ratio can still be constant when the mass flow in the free-stream and capture area both increases. For example, 1/1 has a ratio of 1, 2/2 also has a ratio of 1 but the mass flow is twice as large as the first.


The recovery decreases along the curve because the normal shock is pulled farther back into the diffuser, with an increase in Mach number upstream of the normal shock, and a resulting increase in total pressure loss. Notice that the mass flow ratio never equals 1.0 because there is always some amount of supersonic spillage from the external oblique shocks. During inlet wind tunnel testing, recovery canes are generated over a range of free stream Mach numbers.
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This proves what I have said. When engine RPM increases, the normal shock is drawn downstream and increase the mass flow to the engine. The process is explained here:
HO3KW.png


Your claim depends on the assumption that reduced throat are would deprive air into the engine, and prevents mass flow from increasing. However, the above diagram shows the mass flow to be increasing despite throat area, meaning your assumption is wrong and hence your claim is wrong. But you insisted on arguing anyway because of your pride, and have to resort to put words in my mouth when I continue to prove you wrong.
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Your claim depends on the assumption that reduced throat are would deprive air into the engine, and prevents mass flow from increasing.
.

A typical supersonic inlet is designed to reduce the airflow to subsonic speed before it enters the engine. Supersonic fighters like the F-16 and F-18 have external-compression inlets - the terminal shock is located at the entrance to the inlet and all flow from there to the engine face is subsonic. But the SR-71 and advanced supersonic transports being designed by NASA and others have mixed-compression inlets - the terminal shock is inside the inlet and can be repositioned by moving the centerbody fore and aft, improving efficiency over a range of Mach numbers.

TechLand's TBCC was designed to address the problem of the changing mass-flow requirements for a supersonic inlet operating across different flight conditions. At the design cruise speed, inlet throat area and mass flow can be matched to maximize engine efficiency, but "off-design" at transonic and low supersonic speeds the inlet needs a much larger throat area to meet the engine's demand for air. This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers .
In the TBCC, the centerbody not only translates fore and aft to reposition the terminal shock (as it did in the SR-71), but channels open and close to adjust throat area and vary mass flow into the engine depening on conditions. The CCIE test article has fixed open slots in the centerbody, and the F-15 flights are intended to collect data to compare both channeled and smooth centerbodies and to see how well the flight results compare with CFD calculations


this article proves you are saying fallacies
 
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Engineer

Major
A typical supersonic inlet is designed to reduce the airflow to subsonic speed before it enters the engine. Supersonic fighters like the F-16 and F-18 have external-compression inlets - the terminal shock is located at the entrance to the inlet and all flow from there to the engine face is subsonic. But the SR-71 and advanced supersonic transports being designed by NASA and others have mixed-compression inlets - the terminal shock is inside the inlet and can be repositioned by moving the centerbody fore and aft, improving efficiency over a range of Mach numbers.

The reason that normal shock can be repositioned is due to the fact that area of normal shock remains constant despite variation in throat area. When the throat becomes too narrow and the normal shock has an area which is insufficient for the flow condition, the shock simply shifts downstream to find a spot where the shock could fit. Essentially, it is like squeezing a ball down a slippery rubber tube, and just like the ball, the area of the normal shock remains the same.

Now, the area of the normal shock is what limits the flow. Since the normal shock shifts to remain constant in area, then the mass flow remains constant as well. All these happen as throat size is varied.
0fVyi.png



TechLand's TBCC was designed to address the problem of the changing mass-flow requirements for a supersonic inlet operating across different flight conditions. At the design cruise speed, inlet throat area and mass flow can be matched to maximize engine efficiency, but "off-design" at transonic and low supersonic speeds the inlet needs a much larger throat area to meet the engine's demand for air. This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers .
In the TBCC, the centerbody not only translates fore and aft to reposition the terminal shock (as it did in the SR-71), but channels open and close to adjust throat area and vary mass flow into the engine depening on conditions. The CCIE test article has fixed open slots in the centerbody, and the F-15 flights are intended to collect data to compare both channeled and smooth centerbodies and to see how well the flight results compare with CFD calculations


this article proves you are saying fallacies

Nope, this article does not prove your claims, but there are two things it says that I want to highlight because you are not understanding them correctly.

The first is how engine efficiency is maximized. As you have said, engine efficiency is linked to pressure recovery. This pressure recovery is maximized by placing the normal shock right at the throat. Variable throat size enables the shock to be repositioned, but this process does not alter the area of normal shock in anyway, hence does not affect mass flow.

The second is what it means by matching the throat area to mass flow. The normal shock cannot be fixed in place. The only way to make the normal shock moves to the throat is by the shock's own "free will". This is achieved by enlarging the throat to let the normal shock fit. And since the area of normal shock determines the mass flow, accommodating the normal shock means accommodation of mass flow.

If you don't want to do something but I made you do it, then it's controlling. Likewise, if the reduction in throat area could force the normal shock to take on a smaller area, then that would be controlling. The keyword is "force", and that's not exist in the way you envision. To achieve high pressure recovery, the throat area is forced to change to meet the mass flow demand, in other words mass flow controls/determines throat size, and is completely opposite to what you have claimed.

When the throat area is not changed, then the normal shock simply moves. This resulting in subcritical condition when the engine has low RPM and supercritical condition when the engine has high RPM.
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Nope, this article does not prove your claims, but there are two things it says that I want to highlight because you are not understanding them correctly
.
The article proves you are wrong, when you add a smaller throat the shock is expelled into a subcritical condition? what does it mean? simple you have a lower air mass flow ratio as such less air is passing through the narrower throat because the inlet is increasing spillage.
In order to reduce spillage you do the opposite
If the throat area (A2) is too small, corresponding to point c in Figure 2.25, a detached shock will stand ahead of the inlet, as shown in Figure 2.25a. By increasing the throat area, the shock can be moved to the inlet lip. When the operating point a of Figure 2.25 is reached, the shock will reach the inlet lip and
Because the engine requieres different mass flows at different speeds and altitude you get contradictions, at the design mach number and cruise flight you can match the air flow needs but at lower speeds you can not, the inlet is just optimized for a speed, otherwise you will need variable throats


At the design cruise speed, inlet throat area and mass flow can be matched to maximize engine efficiency, but "off-design" at transonic and low supersonic speeds the inlet needs a much larger throat area to meet the engine's demand for air. This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers


By varying the throat size you can increase the air mass supply, that is what they do, at transonic speeds the air mass supply needs to be larger as such a larger throat area is set, the main advantage is a smaller intake but the disadvantage is the extra mechanical systems.

For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry

Aircraft will only use them if they need to fly at Mach 2.3-8, all the fighters that fly at such speeds have variable geometry throats

The rest is you usual fallacy, since you have claimed in your initial claim that bernoulli`s principle will allow for no spillage since the flow will accelerate, but because flow is choked and the velocity is choked, the supercritical condition has a choked mass flow
Super critical mass flow ratio remains a constant because the mass flow through the cowl lip plane is fixed by supersonic conditions .


you even posted this figure
claiming bascily

The conservation of mass (continuity) tells us that the mass flow rate mdot through a tube is a constant and equal to the product of the density r, velocity V, and flow area A:

Eq #1:


mdot = r * V * A
Considering the mass flow rate equation, it appears that for a given area and a fixed density, we could increase the mass flow rate indefinitely by simply increasing the velocity.





V3olz.jpg

but you never said that this happened

because There is a maximum airflow limit that occurs when the Mach number is equal to one. The limiting of the mass flow rate is called choking of the flow. If we substitute M = 1 into Eq #10 we can determine the value of the choked mass flow rate:
thus
The limiting mass flow rate is directly proportional to the stagnation pressure, and inversely proportional to the square root of the stagnation temperature. Thus, if more work is taken out of the flow by the turbine per unit mass, the stagnation pressure drops sharply, and the mass flow and thus the thrust drop sharply as well.
 
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Engineer

Major
The article proves you are wrong, when you add a smaller throat the shock is expelled into a subcritical condition? what does it mean? simple you have a lower air mass flow ratio as such less air is passing through the narrower throat because the inlet is increasing spillage.
In order to reduce spillage you do the opposite
If the throat area (A2) is too small, corresponding to point c in Figure 2.25, a detached shock will stand ahead of the inlet, as shown in Figure 2.25a. By increasing the throat area, the shock can be moved to the inlet lip. When the operating point a of Figure 2.25 is reached, the shock will reach the inlet lip and

And then what? You are deliberately leaving out the part which mentioned shock is swallowed. Allow me to highlight the part which you have missed:
UET0r.png


That citation you gave refers to the process of starting an inlet, not the control of mass flow. An internal/mixed compression inlet does not operate with the normal shock being ahead of the inlet. Furthermore, spillage is independent of throat area:
Ac31E.jpg


When the throat area is narrowed, the shock is sucked downstream in the diffuser. This results because the normal shock can no longer be fitted at the throat, and the shock seeks a larger region deep in the inlet to maintain a constant area. Thus, supercritical condition occurs and the mass flow rate is maintained.

Because the engine requieres different mass flows at different speeds and altitude you get contradictions, at the design mach number and cruise flight you can match the air flow needs but at lower speeds you can not, the inlet is just optimized for a speed, otherwise you will need variable throats


At the design cruise speed, inlet throat area and mass flow can be matched to maximize engine efficiency, but "off-design" at transonic and low supersonic speeds the inlet needs a much larger throat area to meet the engine's demand for air. This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers

The purpose of the variable throat is to control the position of the shock, as maximum efficiency can be achieved with the shock sitting right at the throat. It has nothing to do with mass flow.

When the throat is being narrowed, the shock simply shifts downstream into the inlet to maintain a constant area. Since area of the normal shock is what relates to mass flow, then the area being constant means mass flow being constant. Thus, when the throat is too narrowed, the shock sits deeper in the inlet to attain the correct mass flow:
0fVyi.png


By enlarging the throat area, the shock moves upstream. When the throat area equals to the area of the shock, the shock moves upstream until being positioned right at the throat. Since the mass flow ultimately determines the area of the normal shock, by resizing the throat area to accommodate the normal shock means adjusting the throat to accommodate the mass flow. This is what matching throat area to mass flow means, and throughout this process the mass flow remains unchanged.

By varying the throat size you can increase the air mass supply, that is what they do, at transonic speeds the air mass supply needs to be larger as such a larger throat area is set, the main advantage is a smaller intake but the disadvantage is the extra mechanical systems.

No. Varying the throat size does not increase affect air mass supply. What increases air flow is increase in engine RPM, and what decreases air flow is decrease in engine RPM. The throat size has nothing to do with it.

When the throat is too narrow, your assumption requires that the mass flow cannot be increased any further. Yet, this assumption is false. What really happens is that the normal shock moves deeper into the throat to attain the required mass flow.

When the opposite situation happens, where the throat is wide, your assumption requires that the mass flow must also be high. This assumption is false again, because low engine RPM would cause pressure build up within the inlet, resulting in subcritical condition. With sufficient back pressure, the normal shock gets pushed out of the inlet's mouth, resulting in spillage that results in reduced mass flow.

The above statements are proven here:
p96HV.png


Hence, the complete opposite occurs when we look at your assumptions, which means there is no connection between throat area and mass flow. Thus, your claim that variation of throat size being used to control mass flow is incorrect.

Finally, your statement above is a fallacy called
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, because you are using "throat size controls mass flow" to prove "throat size controls mass flow".


For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry

The different throat sizes are consequent of collapsing and expansion of the intake ramps. These ramps are used to control position of shock waves. When the ramps are needed at supersonic speed, they are expanded. When shock waves cannot be generated at subsonic speed, the ramps are collapsed. This is not control of mass flow.

The difference between mass flow at subsonic and at supersonic cruise that your article speaks of is taken care by bypass, as mentioned in the following citation of yours:
EmxOh.png


And the above source says the following in the next paragraph:
IHVho.png



Thus, the reduction in mass flow already has an explanation, and it is not the throat size. This is a fact.

All you have done above is saying throat size variation and mass flow variation occur together in arguing your claim. This is known as
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, because
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. It is no different than claiming your act of taking a dump causes the sun to rise because you take a dump every morning before sunrise. :rolleyes:


Aircraft will only use them if they need to fly at Mach 2.3-8, all the fighters that fly at such speeds have variable geometry throats

This doesn't mean throat area is in control of mass flow. This statement of yours is fallacy of
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.

The rest is you usual fallacy, since you have claimed in your initial claim that bernoulli`s principle will allow for no spillage since the flow will accelerate,

Nope. You do not know what a fallacy is. As an example, your statement above constitutes as a fallacy, and it is called
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because the statement that Bernoulli's principle does not allow for spillage is manufactured by you, not a claim by me. For the record, I have made clear that spillage occurs on all inlets:
Spillage can occur with inlets with no variable-geometry, such as DSI. You can read about spillage of DSI
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. Thus, spill air is not caused by variation in throat area.
Spillage occurs because normal shock wave is outside of inlet's mouth, this is called sub-critical condition. This phenomenon occurs on all inlets, such as DSI.





but because flow is choked and the velocity is choked, the supercritical condition has a choked mass flow

You are using terminologies randomly without considering their meanings. Allow me to provide you with some background:
  • Choke condition is related to the fact that maximum flow is limited by area of the normal shock. You incorrectly assume it causes spill. When the shock is inside the inlet, the signal of its existence cannot make it out of the inlet, because the signal propagates at speed-of-sound whereas flow ahead of the shock is supersonic. This means, if we were to exclude the presence of oblique shocks, the normal shock does not cause spillage ahead of itself.
  • Supercritical condition means the shock is displaced downstream of the throat. What limits the mass flow is area of normal shock, and this shock shifts downstream to seek a larger area when the throat becomes too narrow. Thus, area of normal shock is conserved, and mass flow rate remains constant.

Super critical mass flow ratio remains a constant because the mass flow through the cowl lip plane is fixed by supersonic conditions .

Mass flow ratio being constant does not mean mass flow is constant. Mass flow ratio refers to the ratio of mass flowing through the stream tube and capture area.
JGUjt.jpg


When the two mass flows are 1kg/s, this results in a ratio of 1:1. The ratio remains at 1:1 when the two mass flows are 2kg/s, which is twice the amount as the former example. Your inability to grasp this concept shows you have no fundamental knowledge in proportion.

you even posted this figure
claiming bascily

The conservation of mass (continuity) tells us that the mass flow rate mdot through a tube is a constant and equal to the product of the density r, velocity V, and flow area A:

Eq #1:


mdot = r * V * A
Considering the mass flow rate equation, it appears that for a given area and a fixed density, we could increase the mass flow rate indefinitely by simply increasing the velocity.





V3olz.jpg

but you never said that this happened

because There is a maximum airflow limit that occurs when the Mach number is equal to one. The limiting of the mass flow rate is called choking of the flow. If we substitute M = 1 into Eq #10 we can determine the value of the choked mass flow rate:
thus
The limiting mass flow rate is directly proportional to the stagnation pressure, and inversely proportional to the square root of the stagnation temperature. Thus, if more work is taken out of the flow by the turbine per unit mass, the stagnation pressure drops sharply, and the mass flow and thus the thrust drop sharply as well.

Actually, I said that happens when I told you mass flow is determined by area of normal shock. A normal shock means Mach number is equal to one. What your citation says above is that mass flow is limited by normal shock and not throat size, verifying my statements.

Variation of throat size causes normal shock to shift means that throat size cannot be in control of mass flow. This is because the normal shock maintains the same area as it shifts location, thereby maintaining the same mass flow. When the normal shock shifts downstream to accommodate mass flow, supercritical condition occurs where the flow at the throat goes higher than Mach 1. This is shown in this figure which you have cited:
oZFoL.png


The flow at the throat is indicated by the small circle, pointed at by the arrow with the flow velocity written right beside. You claimed that flow velocity cannot be higher than Mach 1 at the throat, and the diagrams showed you to be incorrect. Thus, you made the an erroneous claim. :rolleyes:

Thus, flow velocity becomes higher to compensate for the restriction at the throat, as according to Benoulli's principle. Mass flow is therefore unaffected by the size of the throat.
V3olz.jpg
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
And then what?

all what you write is pure fallacy, look mass flow is determined by inlet sizing, that is called mach design number of the inlet, that will determine the capture area, second the throat is also sized, the shock will be out of the inlet at low mass flow ratios and out of the design number

At the design cruise speed, inlet throat area and mass flow can be matched to maximize engine efficiency, but "off-design" at transonic and low supersonic speeds the inlet needs a much larger throat area to meet the engine's demand for air. This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers



the shock only will be at its critical condition at the inlet design number with low spillage.
Max mass flow ratio means near 1

The knee of the curve is labeled critical and at this maximum mass flow ratio, the terminal normal shock sits at the cowl lip.
.

once the shock is supercritical mass flow ratio is limited.

Super critical mass flow ratio remains a constant because the mass flow through the cowl lip plane is fixed by supersonic conditions .

the rest is your usual nonsense which is really boring even quoting and answering
 
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Engineer

Major
all what you write is pure fallacy,

You keep accuse me of that, but the fact that you are never able to back it up with any example speaks volume. A big difference between you and I is that when I claim you are making fallacies, I can point out exactly why they are fallacies, because I argue with facts and logic. You are unable to do that because you argue with emotion and fallacies.

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of your own faulty attributes on to me isn't going to alter the reality that my statements are facts, facts drawn from the same books and papers that you cite. And it is these citation of yours that show your own claims being incorrect. :rolleyes:

look mass flow is determined by inlet sizing, that is called mach design number of the inlet, that will determine the capture area, second the throat is also sized, the shock will be out of the inlet at low mass flow ratios and out of the design number

No. Design Mach number of the inlet refers to the ideal Mach number in which a fixed inlet will produce the maximum efficiency. Any speed other than this is off-design speed.

At design Mach number, the oblique shocks impinge on the intake lip and that normal shock is positioned right at the throat. There is no connection between throat size and mass flow, and repeating that claim of yours ad infinitium isn't going to magically turn your imagination into reality.

At the design cruise speed, inlet throat area and mass flow can be matched to maximize engine efficiency, but "off-design" at transonic and low supersonic speeds the inlet needs a much larger throat area to meet the engine's demand for air. This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers

Matching the inlet throat area to mass flow means the throat is made to be the same size as normal shock, so that the shock can be positioned right at the throat for maximum pressure recovery. The size of the normal shock determines the mass flow, and is fixed for a given flow condition, which is why the throat has to be adjusted to accommodate the normal shock.

When the throat size becomes too narrow, the shock simply shifts downstream from the throat, resulting in supercritical condition. Since the inlet is divergent, inlet area downstream of the throat is bigger, and the normal shock being there allows bigger mass flow then if the normal shock were to stay at the throat.
HO3KW.png


The shifting of normal shock is demonstrated in this
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. Mass flow is fixed because of choke, said so in video
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, not because of throat. Thus mass flow is independent of throat area.

the shock only will be at its critical condition at the inlet design number with low spillage.

Outside of the design Mach number, the inlet will not be operating at critical condition, and the shock will not be at the throat. For example, if the throat is at a wrong size, then the shock will not be at the throat, as simple as that.

The shock always seek a position in the inlet where it can occupy just the right area to accommodate the mass flow. This is because the area of normal shock and mass flow are inter-related. When the throat size is slowly reduced, the shock maintains its area by shifting downstream of the inlet, thereby keeping mass flow as constant:
0fVyi.png


Max mass flow ratio means near 1


Critical

The knee of the curve is labeled critical and at this maximum mass flow ratio, the terminal normal shock sits at the cowl lip.
.

once the shock is supercritical mass flow ratio is limited.

Super critical mass flow ratio remains a constant because the mass flow through the cowl lip plane is fixed by supersonic conditions .

Maximum mass flow ratio does not mean maximum mass flow. For example, let mdot1 = 1 and mdoti = 1, the resulting mass flow ratio is:
mdoti/mdot1 = 1/1 = 1.

Now, increasing the mass flow to 2 and let mdot1 = 2 and mdoti = 2, the mass flow ratio is now:
mdoti/mdot1 = 2/2 = 1

Thus, math demonstrates your assumptions to be wrong. Maximum mass flow ratio is not maximum mass flow, and constant mass flow ratio is not constant mass flow. Your inability to grasp this concept shows you have no knowledge in proportion.

JGUjt.jpg



the rest is your usual nonsense which is really boring even quoting and answering

Just because facts do not conform to your opinion, that does not mean they are nonsense. Instead, it means your opinions are nonsense and it is time you should re-evaluate them, because ignoring facts and continuing to preach those opinions don't alter the fact that those opinions are wrong. :rolleyes:
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
You keep accuse me of that, but the fact that you are never able to back it up with any example speaks volume. :
pure fallacies of you

i have prove it to you you jus simply ignore and give fallacy after fallacy

At the design cruise speed, inlet throat area and mass flow can be matched to maximize engine efficiency, but "off-design" at transonic and low supersonic speeds the inlet needs a much larger throat area to meet the engine's demand for air. This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers



these articles sums all, you simply do not acept reality and you come to me time after time as if you were unable to read english


This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers


I ask you do not you understand english?


For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry



but i now you give more fallacies after i posted this.

All the articles mention why they vary the throat, they mention oblique and normal shocks.
The rest is the typical fallacies you say, why?


Simple you can not understand why DSI are used.
fore spillage is using the throat and ramps thus reducing the mass flow and increasing spillage, after spillage is using bypass doors, the ramps reduce the mass flow ratio, increasing spillage and reducing the air than enters the intake
6083d1328070999-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-intake-ramp1.jpg


of course i know you will say F-14 uses bypass doors not the throat and all the fallacies you write
 

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Engineer

Major
pure fallacies of you

i have prove it to you you jus simply ignore and give fallacy after fallacy

Fallacy refers to improper reasoning used in argument. What I gave you are facts drawn from the same articles and books that you use, facts that you conveniently ignore because they do not conform to your opinion. Pointing out facts that you disagree with does not constitute as fallacy. Also,
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of your own attributes onto me doesn't mean my statements are fallacies. :rolleyes:

At the design cruise speed, inlet throat area and mass flow can be matched to maximize engine efficiency, but "off-design" at transonic and low supersonic speeds the inlet needs a much larger throat area to meet the engine's demand for air. This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers



these articles sums all, you simply do not acept reality and you come to me time after time as if you were unable to read english

This requires an inlet that can accomodate a wide variation in throat area, otherwise engine efficiency suffers


I ask you do not you understand english?

No where in your above citation does it claim that throat area controls the mass flow. Accommodation of wide variation in throat area does not automatically mean its purpose is to control mass flow either. Your use of this as a support for your claim is called
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because you cannot bridge the disconnection between the above premise and your claim.

Matching the throat size to mass flow means the throat size is made to accommodate the normal shock, so that the shock would sit right at the throat for maximum pressure recovery. Since area of the normal shock directly relates to mass flow, this also means the throat size is control/determine by the mass flow. This is completely opposite to your claim that mass flow is control/determine by throat area.

When the throat is too narrow and the normal shock there has an area which is insufficient for the flow condition, the shock shifts downstream until its area is big enough for the flow. This is what you call a supercritical condition. Since the normal shock can shift to compensate for flow condition, it means the throat size cannot be used to control mass flow:
0fVyi.png



For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry



but i now you give more fallacies after i posted this.

Wrong. I am giving you facts. Facts that you ignore or unable to comprehend are not fallacies. You should go look up what fallacy means in a dictionary because you do not know what the term means, just like you do not know the subject in which you are arguing. :rolleyes:

The reduced air flow in supersonic cruise as compared to subsonic speed is accounted for by the bypass system. For example, in F-14's inlet, the bypass is located at the throat:
EmxOh.png


Difference between the mass flow going into the inlet and the actual amount that is require by the engine must be dump by bypass system:
oMP3o.png


Thus, the reduction in air flow mentioned in your citation is already accounted for by bypass. Increase in throat area is a consequent of collapsing the ramps at subsonic flight, because no shock can be created and it is pointless to deploy the ramps at that speed. Variation in the throat area does not occur until the aircraft is well into supersonic flight. This is called creating a throat when you need and putting it away when you don't, which does not constitute as control of mass flow in anyway.

All variation in throat area does is simply shift the position of normal shock. When the throat size becomes too narrow, the shock maintains its area by simply shifting downstream from the throat, resulting in supercritical condition. Since the inlet is divergent, inlet area downstream of the throat is bigger, and the normal shock being there allows bigger mass flow then if the normal shock were to stay at the throat.
0RJeO.png


All the articles mention why they vary the throat, they mention oblique and normal shocks.

Mentioning of oblique and normal shocks does not magically turn your incorrect claims into facts.


The rest is the typical fallacies you say, why?

Simple you can not understand why DSI are used.

Your disagreement with facts that I posted only mean your opinion is wrong, and does not mean the facts are fallacies. :rolleyes:

As far as DSI goes, it has been shown that DSI has better performance than variable-geometry inlets such as those used on F-4. This better performance is due to the better pressure recovery DSI can obtain. It is another fact which you are unable to accept.


fore spillage is using the throat and ramps thus reducing the mass flow and increasing spillage, after spillage is using bypass doors, the ramps reduce the mass flow ratio, increasing spillage and reducing the air than enters the intake
6083d1328070999-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-intake-ramp1.jpg


of course i know you will say F-14 uses bypass doors not the throat and all the fallacies you write

Of course you will know that I post facts that you are unable to accept, but your denial doesn't mean these facts are fallacies. :rolleyes:

In that entire citation of yours, there is no mention of using the throat to induce spillage. The bit about the use of throat is added by you, once again showing you are being disingenuous when preaching your opinion. The above citation verifies my statements that shock geometry influences the mass flow ratio, and not throat area. This is collaborate in another diagram:
qdqLb.png


As you see, mass flow ratio is only dependent on capture area A1 and free-stream cross sectional area A0i. It is independent of throat area As. Spillage occurs due to gap between the shock and the inlet's mouth. Spillage behind oblique shocks is not influenced by the normal shock, and occurs on fixed-geometry inlet as well at off-design Mach number, proving it has nothing to do with variation in throat area.
TdLHZ.png


Air that is not spilled enters the inlet, and all variation in throat area does at this point is cause the position of normal shock to change. When the throat area is too small, the normal shock simply shifts further downstream to compensate, maintaining the mass flow:
0fVyi.png
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Fallacy refers to improper reasoning used in argument.
yes you only use fallacies, it is obvious
here they show why your reasoning is a fallacy, they say the engine will increase spillage on an off design operation
6031d1327684041-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-a232.jpg

Check they say increase by saying create larger, but of course your answer are typical fallacies, since you did not want to admit the fact For typical HSCT-type engines the requiered cruise air flow can be as low as 70% of the required air flow at transonic conditions, To provide for the large airflow rates at transonic condition the inlet throat area must be larger than at the cruise condition, this increased area is provided by the variable inlet geometry
the rest are your usual fallacies but i see you can not understand english well, larger throat for larger air mass go thesaurus

In that entire citation of yours, there is no mention of using the throat to induce spillage.

this a good example of selective memory during the act of fallacy creation by you in few words blunt lying because this graph shows a smaller throat and an increased ramp angle.
of course i do not post fixed geometry intakes like you do in your fallacies but variable geometry intakes

5917d1325380966-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-intake.jpg

as such this is logic
6083d1328070999-sdf-aerospace-aerodynamics-corner-intake-ramp1.jpg
 
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