Should term limit for China's presidency remain the same, be extended, or eliminated?

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
It seems among the 10 to 20 chapters of constitution proposed to be changed, ONLY "removal of the two term limit" is picked by the western media. That does tell what they are starting at, and what they are NOT interested in (MOST).

I personally prefer the "two term limit" for: 1. the president would be in his prime time age 60 to 70. 2. less chance for a personal connection to be long lasting (let's face it, even the president does not want it, he can not stop all his subordinates to build thier network, and we should assume some of them are not so morally realiable).

But, I also heard from a friend of mine who works in a SOE as saying "probably only a strongman can deal with the current (mess) tough stituation“. I have to agree with her because China is in a very tough situation both domestically and internationally, and indeed only a strongman wielding power for a long time is able to implement the necessary measures without wasting time in successesion strugles.

Xi was chosen to be the president by the previous politburo which also selected other members such as the Primier Li. Xi did not make those choices. This is to say all his colleagues weild powers not granted by Xi. These people must agree and support the change, Xi can not get it without the approval from his colleagues. So the fact is the change is just that "change of terms", NOT change of institution "power is vested in the central committee and its standing committee, not an individual".
 

sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
however the downside risks not only come from Xi himself or even just his inner circle but how others adjust to both perceived and actual more centralized power.

When the centralized power is strong and long it may well stymie the grooming of future leaders and the innate desire of capable people to pursue such a career path to begin with, guaranteeing a next generation of mediocre leaders or worse.

Cults of personality can develop from the bottom up and tend to run amok or be deliberately used by others for ulterior motives other than to serve the agenda of the idolized. Time checks on "paramount leaders" serve as an important conceptual brake on any such tendencies.

In addition to cults of personality the many layers of power in the heirarchy between top leadership directives and ground level implementation of policies have a much easier time hiding behind superficially centralized power, or actual centralized power as it decays, while either performing incompetently or serving their own ulterior agendas.

These are significant downside risks that not only have multiple repeated examples throughout history but also in recent Chinese history.

Yes I agree with you, but this won't happen that if Xi's reform continue to focus on law and institutionalized government structure and if it became successful, it will have better effect to impact the society as a whole and make people much less willing to accept someone with absolute power.

So by time time his 3rd or 4th term is over, paradoxically people will be much less willing to accept a strongman figure, but also paradoxically the way to make this reform happen takes takes a strongman to do so.

Something similar of this have happened in the past, Mustafa Kemal Atatürk of Turkey was a strongman but he saw Ottoman empire's weakness and he single handily reformed it and transform it from a backward society into one that embrace secularism and embrace the advanced Europe, and of course Erdoğan is trying to change all that but that's a different story.

So we shall see if Xi spend the next 10-15 years make reforms or just consolidate his power.
 

sanblvd

Junior Member
Registered Member
I also want to add some very funny observation about this turn of event from the Western media.

The coverage, the bashing from event this is not nearly as bad as other events, not even close to their annual June 4 commemoration or Liu Xiaobao or Bo Xilai or every time Dollar Lama farts, but yet as a Chinese/overseas Chinese I think this event is far more important than any of those I mentioned combined, this is because when many people heard China abolished 2 term limited they were confused that China even have this term limit in the first place, because the way the Western media reporting on China during the past 20 years LITERALLY give people the impression that China was always like this from the very beginning...

So how can the media report that its even worse now? When in the past there was never ever a good thing said about China? Of course by admit this, the "free media" have to admit their reporting on China was never balance before.. that Chinese system does have many aspect of democratic factors... and everyone know here this would never happen in 1000 years.

This to me, is the height arrogance and also very very funny.
 

lucretius

Junior Member
Registered Member
Did you get all your insight into this from the Western media? Cus the Chinese internet is clamoring with support. The people's admiration and approval of Xi crept up into the voting CCP members and that's what's making this proposal and the upcoming vote possible.

But if you're only reading the Western media, you'd think 1.3 billion Chinese are watching in helpless horror as they watch their country get hijacked. Next time, read primary sources, not secondary sources with a grudge against the primary sources...

Why the need for heavy internet censorship then? What have they got to fear?
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Why the need for heavy internet censorship then? What have they got to fear?
There's censorship and war on media in every country. Are people free to spread ideals for ISIS in the West? Is flag-burning legal in all democratic countries? Do you let your kids watch porn and movies glorifying drug/alcohol abuse?

There are some things that you just don't need in your society/family and that's why there's censorship. If someone advertised Falun Gong or ROC independence to me, I will personally censor his mouth, not because I'm afraid he'll convince me but because I don't want to hear that shit.

Back to the topic: Are you Chinese? Do you have any idea, whether through primary Chinese sources or through interactions with Chinese people who love their nation, how much support Xi has? I'm not going to bother wasting my time with you if you're not even Chinese. Chinese internal affairs are not the business of nosy foreigners.
 
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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
You are dangerously underestimating Beijing if you think they cannot see something so obvious.

I see it as Beijing not giving a single solitary crap about what the west thinks.

They are the leaders of China, and their only concern should be what is in the best interests of China, and not how to please the West.

The western media will piss and moan pretty much no matter what China does, and spin everything to show only the worst angle. It’s what they do.

The only way Beijing could please the West is to do things that benefit the West at the expense of damaging Chinese national interests. So I say that’s a mugs game, and Beijing is absolutely right on not playing it.

LOL..in the Western anti-China pundits wet dreams! Perhaps it's true for Japan and South Korea since they are weaker and cater to that kind of narrative behavior and reaction to Western media and criticism.

Well then they don't have to answer to Western criticism. If they don't give a crap, nothing needs to be said.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Well then they don't have to answer to Western criticism. If they don't give a crap, nothing needs to be said.
How did they "answer"? They basically said "Mind your own business, we're fine, tend to all the problems in your country instead." Right? You don't have to literally pretend that someone doesn't exist to show that you don't care about his opinion.

If you neighbor wants you to fix up your front yard cus he thinks it's ugly, you don't have to pretend you didn't hear him to ignore his request. You can answer back with "F- off, mind your own business, and I think your front yard's uglier than mine." That doesn't mean you're seeking his approval just because you answered, right? That's how China's answering now.
 

supercat

Major
Really? NOTHING good? When you say something like this, it shows that you've not read the arguments in support of the change and that your understanding of the dilemma is so shallow that you don't even acknowledge that there are counter points. You think that everyone who supports this has got to be literally insane and mentally retarded because that many people are advocating for a stance that has NO benefits at all. If you want to debate intelligently, you need to at least understand that there are pros and cons to this change before you decide which side you believe outweighs the other.

I don’t think those who support Xi’s move are insane or mentally retarted. On the contrary, I think they are shrewd and calculating. I also agree that a lot of people will benefit from such move tremendously. However, who are these people? They are probably Chinese elites on Xi’s side, Xi’s cronies, and Xi’s lackeys. Too bad that most ordinary Chinese probably will not benefit as much as these people.

The disadvantage is that transitions can be rough. They must work out good specifics to prevent that from becoming chaos, I agree. Yet just because they haven't laid out every detail before us for judgement does not mean that they don't have a plan or haven't thought about it and China's going back to the feudal age. They will have time to work out the transition mechanism while prolonged rule by a single very capable leader leads to greater stability during his reign. The scope of projects can be longer/larger without fear of being abandoned by the next premier. Allies will trust you more for long-term commitments unafraid that 3 years later, your successor will revoke the deal. There is less effort/resource devoted to successors undoing the deeds of their predecessors. In general, the administration can be more consistent. These are all stabilizers.

Don't worry about "anti-China drivel." They'll always find something; China's economy could be growing at 12% and they'll still find a way to say China's going to collapse. It literally has nothing to do with how China is doing LOL. The last thing you want to do is take them seriously and allow them to influence your decisions or worse, to spend resources trying to placate them. The correct thing to do is let them talk all the shit they want about you and make thier hearts rot out as they watch your economy and military soar above theirs all the while doing everything they told you was wrong.

Scrapping an established succession mechanism 20-years in the making, then start from scratch again after Xi's rein, without any guarantee of success, sounds like a waste of effort/resource to me, especially considering how difficult it was to put the mechanism together the first time around, through murky political horse-trading and all.

I do not really worry about anti-China drivel. I just hate to see the Chinese government giving the China-bashing media any opportunity to throw more cheap shots at China.

What is the definition of a proper leader? Sure, I have great confidence that China can produce leader after leader whom are all quite "proper" and internationally competitive with the leaders of rival countries but that doesn't mean they will be better than Xi. Even among a group of the best, there are still rare stand-outs that should be selected for to rule for longer than their peers. With this vote, China is betting that Xi is that standout.

That’s what I don’t understand. Why don’t they purpose to extend the term limit by 5 years, instead of scrapping it altogether? On the other hand, I think 5-10 years is sufficient time to find someone who is as competent as Xi. After all, there are no irreplaceable politicians. As the saying goes: “the graveyards are full of indispensable men.”

Diminish the confidence of overseas talent? Ha, that's a stretch. I don't know about you but when I decide where to go, I look at how dynamic the economy is, how beautiful the streets (women) are, and the standard of living. I don't look for who the leader is, and how long he will be in power/how much power he has. The only people concerned with that are people who want to know how much bad shit they can do before they get arrested/killed. Your suggestion parrots western propaganda of how other countries are unbearably "unfree."

I sincerely hope that you are right and I’m wrong, that the nature of the Chinse government will have no bearing on people’s decision to stay and work in China. Time shall tell, though.

The precedence it sets is that you must follow the law. If you want to do something that is currently not allowed, you must debate your case before the CCP members, get approval and a formal party vote to change the law before you proceed. If you cannot complete the formal process, then you cannot do it. This shows that even the premier cannot break the law. Those who can achieve this have followed the proper path in maintaining a strict yet adaptable set of laws.

Xi shows his disrespect to the Chinese constitution by attempting to change it at his whim. Arguing otherwise needs evidence what exact legal and political venue Xi has gone through to reach this stage. Unfortunately, transparency is not the forte of CCP, so for us casual observers, Xi has arrived at this point rather suddenly.

No, it will decrease the corruption. All those dirt-bags waiting for 2023 when Xi will leave so they can try to group-bribe the next premier (not saying it's certain if he will be a man of moral) can all go hang themselves to avoid life in jail. Those who serve under Xi will know that this anti-corruption drive is serious and lasting so they'd better stay clean. Will there still be corruption? Forever, in every country, the answer is yes, but the real question is how much? Is it a cesspool where all politicians have to be corrupt to play the game, or is the a few rogues that sneak around like cockroaches? The latter is always better than the former. With the new changes, Xi's extended anti-corruption drive will have the chance to create a new culture of anti-corruption that can only be nurtured with time.

I hate to repeat myself. But my argument is that it would be hard to get rid of those corrupt officials who are on the side of Xi, if Xi stays in power forever.

Laughingstock? LOL There are cold sweats in the West as they stare men like Xi and Putin in the eyes. They can only manage a sigh of relief as they think about the departure of such a skilled and powerful opponent in 2023. After his limits are removed, they will all take him even more seriously because they will know that they cannot wait him out.

China’s enemies may find Xi’s weakness to exploit someday. It’s not a good ideal to rely on one-man rule. I know China is actually ruled by committee. But Xi has become the strongest leader since Deng.

A country's reputation has nothing to do with term limits; it has everything to do with economic and military power. There are countries in this world, first world nations, that do not have term limits and their reputations are fine. China will be no exception. The Western media will try to make this look like an apocalypse come true for China as much as they can at first but count the days before it's back to business as usual.

You misunderstood what I said. A country’s reputation has nothing to do with term limits, but has everything to do with if the country’s constitution is respected by its own leaders. Furthermore, I do not agree with you opinion that “might is right”. Finally, as someone already said, unless it’s a banana republic, all those countries that do not have term limits have popular votes.

Xi upholds the Chinese constitution by following it. He did not try to stage a military coupe to grab a third term when the laws prohibit it. He asked everyone in power whether they thought the laws needed to be changed and they will vote their decisions into law. This is exactly what we want politicians to do. We don't want them to break the laws, and we don't want them to be mindlessly confined by the laws. We need them make sure that all laws adapt to reflect current situation and opinion. If a law is outdated and no longer the general consensus, then it needs to be changed; be not afraid of this "taboo."

I’m sorry, but Xi is not upholding the Chinese constitution. He is trying to change it inappropriately, breaking China’s façade of “rule of law”.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
How did they "answer"? They basically said "Mind your own business, we're fine, tend to all the problems in your country instead." Right? You don't have to literally pretend that someone doesn't exist to show that you don't care about his opinion.

If you neighbor wants you to fix up your front yard cus he thinks it's ugly, you don't have to pretend you didn't hear him to ignore his request. You can answer back with "F- off, mind your own business, and I think your front yard's uglier than mine." That doesn't mean you're seeking his approval just because you answered, right? That's how China's answering now.

Yeah that's the latest answer which I'm okay with but I saw one quote soon after it was announced from someone in Beijing having to explain the decision. No explanation needed.

Your hypothetical situation would be categorized as a Kim Jong Un response. It seems many members would have a problem with that.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I don’t think those who support Xi’s move are insane or mentally retarted. On the contrary, I think they are shrewd and calculating. I also agree that a lot of people will benefit from such move tremendously. However, who are these people? They are probably Chinese elites on Xi’s side, Xi’s cronies, and Xi’s lackeys. Too bad that most ordinary Chinese probably will not benefit as much as these people.
I meant the ordinary people, hundreds of millions like me who don't have a vote but support Xi and this change anyway. Can you not see our point of view? Judging by your revision, it seems you maybe can, because you just said that we would not benefit as much as Xi's cabinet and of course I agree (since they get all the benefits we get plus job security) but I believe we will all benefit from this.
Scrapping an established succession mechanism 20-years in the making, then start from scratch again after Xi's rein, without any guarantee of success, sounds like a waste of effort/resource to me, especially considering how difficult it was to put the mechanism together the first time around, through murky political horse-trading and all.
That's how progress is made. Scrapping the old, making the new; never is there a guarantee of success in life. Those who have the courage to undertake this have a chance to come out champions; those who cling to the past will be left in the past.
I do not really worry about anti-China drivel. I just hate to see the Chinese government giving the China-bashing media any opportunity to throw more cheap shots at China.
Like I said, black is white and white is black for them. If any part of what they say influences what you do, for example, avoiding things that you think might give them "opportunity" (AKA seeking their approval), that's the only way they win. Honestly, I like it when I hear them talk; it smells like fear.
That’s what I don’t understand. Why don’t they purpose to extend the term limit by 5 years, instead of scrapping it altogether? On the other hand, I think 5-10 years is sufficient time to find someone who is as competent as Xi. After all, there are no irreplaceable politicians. As the saying goes: “the graveyards are full of indispensable men.”
5-10 years is enough time??!! LOL How many decades has it been since Deng for us to get Xi?? We're not talking about finding someone who can do as well as him on the SAT's here. We're talking about an all-round leader as competent and beloved as him. And you honestly don't even know if you have a winner until the rookie's a good few years in! Nobody's irreplaceable and the world will still turn with anyone gone but it does not mean that you eject great leaders for no reason! Statistically speaking, the next guy's probably gonna be worse than Xi and not as familiar with Xi's reforms as Xi is. That guy is not going to be a good replacement, though China will live through it.
I sincerely hope that you are right and I’m wrong, that the nature of the Chinse government will have no bearing on people’s decision to stay and work in China. Time shall tell, though.
It will probably have a positive bearing because with Xi seeing China through this transition to become more powerful and mature, China will be even more attractive to sea turtles. It's all about the competence and morals of the premier, not how often he's changed out.
Xi shows his disrespect to the Chinese constitution by attempting to change it at his whim. Arguing otherwise needs evidence what exact legal and political venue Xi has gone through to reach this stage. Unfortunately, transparency is not the forte of CCP, so for us casual observers, Xi has arrived at this point rather suddenly.
No, Xi shows his respect to the constitution by updating it with the current vote as opposed to breaking it and seizing control by military force. If you really think that this hasn't been in the making behind the scenes for a long time and that Xi just woke up one day and stumbled onto it by his "whim" then we probably need to stop talking. You're just not there in terms of understanding and reasoning.
I hate to repeat myself. But my argument is that it would be hard to get rid of those corrupt officials who are on the side of Xi, if Xi stays in power forever.
Yeah, but at least Xi has an active anti-corruption drive. Who else have purged corruption like Xi? I hate to repeat myself as well but I'd prefer the couple of rogue corrupt officials sneaking around under Xi's radar than the whole system being a cesspool of dirty politicians whose corruption is an open secret. No one, not even Xi, can eradicate corruption, but he can reduce it by cracking down and hopefully using time to change the culture. No other premier has done that.
China’s enemies may find Xi’s weakness to exploit someday. It’s not a good ideal to rely on one-man rule. I know China is actually ruled by committee. But Xi has become the strongest leader since Deng.
Uh huh and you're not worried about this happening with the next guy? We know that so far, Xi's been upstanding. What about the next guy? The next guy's morals could be Swiss cheese compared to Xi's as far as we know. I am far more concerned with next guy being bribed into putty from all sides internal and external within his first year in office than someone finding any "weakness" in Xi. But as I said before, if Xi starts to slip sometime in the far future, there should be a way to retire him. Just because they haven't laid out the details before us as to how doesn't mean they don't have a plan.
You misunderstood what I said. A country’s reputation has nothing to do with term limits, but has everything to do with if the country’s constitution is respected by its own leaders. Furthermore, I do not agree with you opinion that “might is right”. Finally, as someone already said, unless it’s a banana republic, all those countries that do not have term limits have popular votes.
"Might is right" is the law of the universe regardless of whether you or I agree. Big animals eat small animals; big countries conquer small countries and annex them, it is inescapable. Countries earn respect by economic and military force. You cannot disrespect a greater force; it is against the laws of physics.

They can have term limits or not and they can have popular vote or not. They are not China. No rule anywhere says you need one or the other. I think you are really drinking that Western cool-aid without knowing it. First you worry about China's "reputation" to foreign talent, then you talk about how we should go along with their ways so they have less reason to write bad things about us, and now this?? You're actually hinting that China should be a democracy with popular vote?? You better check yourself to see which team you're still on. China doesn't have to follow any models of any country anywhere; China creates its own systems and earns its own successes to the awe and disbelief of those who think with a western mind. That's how China rolls and that's how China pulls ahead. If you can't fathom it, just keep watching.
I’m sorry, but Xi is not upholding the Chinese constitution. He is trying to change it inappropriately, breaking China’s façade of “rule of law”.
I'm sorry but you don't know what you're talking about. Whether or not Xi is upholding Chinese law comes down to one simple question: Did he do anything illegal? If he did, point it out. If not, if making changes to the constitution is not illegal, then you've got no case; he's factually upholding the law.

I don't think you understand what a constitution is. It's a piece of paper with words on it. It is not unchangeable, sacred, or holy. If lawmakers feel that one if its rules is more of a liability than an asset, it can be eliminated or changed by legal process. And that is what is happening. You are acting like people are scribbling over the 10 holy commandments of God here (I'm not religious and don't believe that) when its actually just people in a room who are changing a set of rules that other people in the same room made up years ago. Constitution = made by people, can be changed/ unmade by people. Nothing taboo about it.
 
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