J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread VI

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plawolf

Lieutenant General
I cannot understand that some still rate Kanwa a reliable source ... which in fact right that moment disqualifies SCMP as a source too.

The sad reality is that in the West, it’s increasingly a case of money trumping facts and reality.

If you don’t like reality but have a stupid amount of money, it’s the easiest and most obvious thing in the world to rent some intellectual prostitutes willing to say just about anything for a nice fat pay cheque to write a report or even establish a think thank to give the conclusion you want.

If you have even more money, you buy a news network, or a significant interest in one, and get that to report on the study you bought and paid for, and suddenly absolute nonsense is become part of mainstream debate. Get a few friendly politicians to plug it, and it could easily become the established reality on capital hill.

It’s basically how lobbying works.

On in addition, with China We get a kind of weird bipolar-esq swing in western assessments and opinions about Chinese military capabilities depending on the political needs of the various think tanks’ paymasters.

Pentagon assessments are more objective, but are rarely made publically available, and are not above political interference either.
 

siegecrossbow

General
Staff member
Super Moderator
The sad reality is that in the West, it’s increasingly a case of money trumping facts and reality.

If you don’t like reality but have a stupid amount of money, it’s the easiest and most obvious thing in the world to rent some intellectual prostitutes willing to say just about anything for a nice fat pay cheque to write a report or even establish a think thank to give the conclusion you want.

If you have even more money, you buy a news network, or a significant interest in one, and get that to report on the study you bought and paid for, and suddenly absolute nonsense is become part of mainstream debate. Get a few friendly politicians to plug it, and it could easily become the established reality on capital hill.

It’s basically how lobbying works.

On in addition, with China We get a kind of weird bipolar-esq swing in western assessments and opinions about Chinese military capabilities depending on the political needs of the various think tanks’ paymasters.

Pentagon assessments are more objective, but are rarely made publically available, and are not above political interference either.

Pentagon does release a report once a year. However, mainstream media rarely pays any attention to it.
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
The sad reality is that in the West, it’s increasingly a case of money trumping facts and reality.

If you don’t like reality but have a stupid amount of money, it’s the easiest and most obvious thing in the world to rent some intellectual prostitutes willing to say just about anything for a nice fat pay cheque to write a report or even establish a think thank to give the conclusion you want.

If you have even more money, you buy a news network, or a significant interest in one, and get that to report on the study you bought and paid for, and suddenly absolute nonsense is become part of mainstream debate. Get a few friendly politicians to plug it, and it could easily become the established reality on capital hill.

It’s basically how lobbying works.

On in addition, with China We get a kind of weird bipolar-esq swing in western assessments and opinions about Chinese military capabilities depending on the political needs of the various think tanks’ paymasters.

Pentagon assessments are more objective, but are rarely made publically available, and are not above political interference either.

IMO that's exactly the point. What matters in politics are no longer facts but much more transmitting feelings in order to gain influence. And the current president is the prime example of this negative trend.

Pentagon does release a report once a year. However, mainstream media rarely pays any attention to it.

Yes, you men the report to Congress.

But that one is also still full of "alternative facts" like bomber Divisions that are long abolished or transformed, technical data, which is plain wrong, ... types of aircraft which are long retired and armed with weapons they never were able to use.

I had a long, long discussion with several guys at Jamestown, RAND and also sent a note to the responsible editorial team... without a reply or with the answer "they know their stuff".

Nuff said.

Deino
 

Deino

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Can you guys please help me out ?? Yesterday Cirr at the PDF posted a strange question or note assuming:

Carrier borne J-20 has had its first flight? :D:D


On further requests some other members added that "It seems so" , that "It is a reliable rumor posted by huahua in CJDBY. The original information is still a story, like he always do. It is about the next generation shipboard aircraft. The main problem is how to unscramble it. You better ignore this." ... "However, there are two different way to unscramble it. So we can not sure it is about J-20 or FC-31."


Today then this cartoon was posted :eek: ...

So in the end how likely do you rate this story? I know CAC surprised us already many times but how likely is it that regardless all rumors and discussions on if or if not, on what type and when Naval Aviation decides a type for its new carrier borne fighter, CAC surprised us with the maiden flight of a carrier-capable J-20??

I'm especially surprised that some seem to be quite sure about this rumour while otherwise neither Xinhui, Huitong, Xinfengcao, OedoSoldier or any other of the reliable guys have posted anything.


I will wait for some hard facts like images before I open a bottle of champagne .... but if it's true I will surely open one, promised. ;):D:p

Best,
Deino

J-20 carrier variant - alleged maiden flight 20180206.jpg
 

kurutoga

Junior Member
Registered Member
The other guy wrote a small novel with some crypted message regarding some borderline classified info that nobody was able to truly explain. The new cartoon is based on that but a tiny piece of the puzzle.

The concept of "pregnancy" usually refers to advanced technology China acquired based on concepts invented by the US. If that is still true, the basic structure of that novel is in year 2022 some big event will happen, both 31 and 20 will need to be able to host and fire some sort of a super weapon because "she is already pregnant today"
 

Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Can you guys please help me out ?? Yesterday Cirr at the PDF posted a strange question or note assuming:




On further requests some other members added that "It seems so" , that "It is a reliable rumor posted by huahua in CJDBY. The original information is still a story, like he always do. It is about the next generation shipboard aircraft. The main problem is how to unscramble it. You better ignore this." ... "However, there are two different way to unscramble it. So we can not sure it is about J-20 or FC-31."


Today then this cartoon was posted :eek: ...

So in the end how likely do you rate this story? I know CAC surprised us already many times but how likely is it that regardless all rumors and discussions on if or if not, on what type and when Naval Aviation decides a type for its new carrier borne fighter, CAC surprised us with the maiden flight of a carrier-capable J-20??

I'm especially surprised that some seem to be quite sure about this rumour while otherwise neither Xinhui, Huitong, Xinfengcao, OedoSoldier or any other of the reliable guys have posted anything.


I will wait for some hard facts like images before I open a bottle of champagne .... but if it's true I will surely open one, promised. ;):D:p

Best,
Deino

View attachment 45280


A truly "Wet" wet dream,, would carry the same weight as if someone posted the F-22 was back in production, obviously not true for J-31/FC-31 either, but much more likely in the future..

the aft mounted delta and distant coupled canard are a-typical for Marine Aviation,,,Rafale does fine off the CATs, but that is more of an "operate what is available to you, and the US had several aft mounted deltas operate off carriers, but those operations were actually relatively short lived???

for carrier ops, the center of lift and center of gravity being near the center of the aircraft are much more conducive to the relatively well balanced high lift preferred for low speed operations, just makes flying it off the carrier easier, not to mention recovery, and that is where the aft mounted delta will have more issues.

with the CAT, you could shoot almost anything off the carrier, but we had a tremendous struggle getting the F-35 C down to 145 knts for recovery.....

just my Honest Opinion??
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Henri K take on the recent rumor of Navalized J 20
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Is embedded J-20 feasible?
H
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Given the relatively long cycle, between 7 and 12 years minimum, the development of a fighter jet, and the fact that
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, who will be tomorrow's embarked plane for the Chinese navy?

Is it realistic to transform the
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, which is
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, in an on-board version?

To try to answer these questions, there are specific parameters around a carrier battle group and data to be taken into account. But they are so numerous that it is simply impossible to be apprehended by one person or to consider them all in an article, and some data are not yet accessible today.

I will therefore give some of my ideas based solely on the following points, with some figures collected from my sources or found in Chinese academic documents:

  • The basic needs to be fulfilled by an onboard airplane
  • Related summary constraints
  • The size of the aircraft carrier and its hangar
  • Price and budget capacity
  • The timing

The MTOW and the size of the aircraft
Let's start with the maximum take-off weight of an airplane that gives a very good indication of how long the plane can stay in flight.

How long should a boarded airplane remain in flight in normal times?

In a study conducted by a doctor of the Naval Academy of the Chinese Navy in September 2013, fighter planes should patrol at least 200km from the aircraft carrier. Another study by a group of military researchers from the National University of Defense Technology considers that the outer layer of air defense should be between 185km to 400km from a carrier group.

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The duration of each flight patrol mission in these two studies is estimated at 2h, and the flying aircraft at a speed varying between 1 100km / h and 1 200km / h, a range of 2,600km to 3,200km.

If it is estimated that 4kg of kerosene would be required to cover 1km, then between 10,400kg and 12,800kg of fuel (internal + external) will be needed, plus about 2,000kg of safety reserve.

The empty weight of such an aircraft can not be less than 16 000 kg. If we now add the weapon and the pylons, the fluids needed for the flight and the pilot (s) ... etc, the MTOW should have a minimum of 30,000kg, if not more.

Today's J-20, even without the structural mass that should be weighed down by the constraints of an on-board aircraft - such as the reinforced structure and trains, the specific materials to deal with the conditions at sea, the lacrosse stop ... etc - should already weigh in this weight category.

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Excerpt from a hangar design study (Harbin Engineering University)

By way of comparison, the MTOW of the main fighter planes nowadays is -

  • 21 400kg for the Rafale M with catapult
  • 29 937kg for the F / A-18E with catapult
  • 31 800kg for the F-35C with catapult
  • 30,000kg for the Su-33 (7kn aircraft carrier, 195m runway length)
  • 32 800kg for the Su-33 (the aircraft carrier at 15kn, runway length 195m)
  • 33 724kg for the F-14A with catapult
A mass of more than 30t always generates a larger size of the device.

In the design of the aircraft and the aircraft carrier, the dimensions of the first and the size of the hangar are closely related, the two influence each other. The size of the hangar itself is also limited by the displacement of the aircraft carrier.

And all these are part of the parameters that impact the SGR (Output Generation Rate) of the aircraft carrier, so the effectiveness of a carrier battle group. This point can be the subject of another article later.

For information, the hangar of the Chinese aircraft carrier Liaoning 16 is approximately 26.4m wide for a displacement around 50 000t. It can carry a total of 36 aircraft including 24 J-15 fighter jets. Although there is no linear relationship between the carrier's movement and the size of its hangar, the two remain naturally linked.

At the level of the dimension, the Su-33 for example measures 21.94m long for a span of 14.70m, or 8.4m once the wings folded (the
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has the same figure, it is normal seen that they are both from the same T-10K prototypes). The size of F / A-18E is 9.94m (or 9.32m according to some sources) with the wings folded.

No official data on its dimensions is available today for the J-20, but according to the very approximate measurements which one can realize in Google Earth, its length approaches the 21m and its wingspan in 13,7m.

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The difference in size between J-7, J-10 and J-20 - CFTE, Yanliang.

For an aircraft like the J-20 that would be
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(过失 速 机动), so with wing optimized for these effects, go from a wingspan of 13 , 7m to 9m including the mechanisms to fold the wings, while taking into account the stealth of the whole, could pose a lot of technical difficulties to the engineers of the 611 Institute in Chengdu.

We can see this in the picture below, imagining that it will be necessary to bend the wing at the place where there is the red star of the badge of the air force, that is, that is to say about 2.65m from the wingtip, knowing that the wing of J-20 is quite thin in thickness.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
(cont)
It should also improve its performance at low speed, essential for an onboard aircraft whose landing speed is very controlled, and the maximum mass at the deck depends greatly.

But from an engineering point of view, it is always easier to try to optimize a large platform, like the J-20, than having to enlarge and weigh down a small one, if for example we have to transform the
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from today. to a machine over 30t.

If we take into account the fact that the number of Chinese naval aviation groups should be lower than that of the Americans, and the Chinese navy has much less experience in the operation of naval air forces, then heavier and therefore more autonomous aircraft would allow also to relieve the pressure on the efficiency of operations on the sending deck.

Price and schedule
We do not know the exact price of J-20 today, but we know for example that its coating costs more than 2 million Yuan (268 k €) per m², or its AESA antenna radar is worth more than 100 million Yuan (~ € 13 million).

Some rumors speak of no less than 800 million Yuan, more than 107 million euros, for a turnkey J-20. Although these are just rumors, but the amount seems consistent.

The acquisition of the arm is a balance between "what we want to do with" and "what we can afford financially." Now let's see how much it will cost the Chinese navy if it had to choose the J-20 as its future onboard aircraft.

I do not know what proportion of the purchase price of a fighter jet compared to its LCC (Lifecycle Cost). My experience in civil aviation tells me that the initial acquisition represents about 25% of LCC, in the case of an A320 for an airline for example.

If we extrapolate this ratio by applying an inflation rate of 3% per year, it will be necessary to add € 576 million in service fees for a 25-year lifecycle of the machine, in addition to the € 107 million purchase. approximately € 583 million in total for a non-naval J-20.

Assuming that China will have 3 CATOBAR aircraft carriers in the end, and each will have at least 40 fighter jets (70 000t of displacement), this will mathematically cost nearly 70 billion euros if the 120 aircraft are all J-20.

We will say that it is a straw given the size of China and its economy, but if we see that the LCC of a 25-year-old J-20 returns the same price to buy a
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destroyer of 12 000t, we will probably have another vision of things.

My sources in China like to tell me that "For every Yuan of budget, we are obliged to spend it in 2 times 50 cents". An expression I took a long time to understand - This is tense in terms of the budget for the Chinese navy, even though the Chinese government seems to be tilting the budget a little closer to them today.

It is for this reason that it seems improbable to me to have a fleet "all J-20" or "any heavy stealth aircraft", at least not at first.

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If the J-20 variant is chosen as the next-generation onboard aircraft, it will certainly be accompanied by a low-end aircraft, which is cheaper to buy and operate, but of comparable size - by example the J-15T (??) catapult version which is currently under development.

We always have another alternative that is the FC-31, but no indication of its price is available today. It is therefore difficult to make any comparison, especially if we assume that it will have to be expanded to meet the needs of the navy.

At the timing level, we know that Chengdu is currently preparing the delivery of its first J-20s to the Chinese Air Force, a sign that the program has reached a certain maturity and that the design office could be released in part. .

If Chengdu is chosen to supply the future embedded aircraft to the navy, it would still be necessary to add 5 to 7 years, in my opinion, to transform and then deliver the first modified J-20 so it will not be available until 2021 at the earliest . The date on which the first CATOBAR Type 003 aircraft carrier could be delivered to the Chinese Navy.

On the other hand, if the Shenyang FC-31 is chosen, it will most likely take 7 to 12 years to see the product completed, because expanding such a platform means designing a new aircraft.

Moreover, neither the Air Force nor the Chinese Navy had been involved in the definition and specification of FC-31 from the beginning, so there are many things to be taken over entirely.

While in the case of J-20, the Chinese navy and the naval industry had already initiated exchanges with the 611 Chengdu Institute since 2008, according to one of my sources.

Moreover, the reading of some recent publications suggests that Chengdu has already started the design of the embedded variant of J-20.

In the article published on August 9 in the China Aviation News of the AVIC group for example, we learn that a team from Chengdu is working on a structural part that must meet the requirement to "support a "heavy load", which is more "light", and which must operate in "a confined space".

The work required a "cross-functional and trans-specialty collaboration".

I personally think that it is the development of landing gear, which must be redesigned and reinforced in the case of embedded version. This remains to be confirmed, of course.

Objectively, the Shenyang Institute 601 has more experience in designing heavy aircraft aircraft. Apart from the J-15 and its variants (two-seater and electronic warfare), it is also the first design office in China to have initiated the associated pre-studies in the 80's.

But if the product they are offering in the Future Airplane Competition is an enlarged FC-31, then I will be very doubtful that it can be achieved on time in relation to the demands of the country and the navy. Chinese.

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J-15S, the two-seater on-board version of the J-15

Although the 611 Institute in Chengdu has never designed an embedded aircraft, the J-20 is a more mature platform that is easier to transform today than the FC-31. And the onboard "specificity" could be "transferred" by Shenyang - the two institutes being managed by the same parent company AVIC - for a possible co-production of the plane later to balance the interests of each.

With the start of construction of the first Chinese CATOBAR aircraft carrier by 2017, it should not be long before we know the final choice of the future aircraft, knowing that the Chinese navy had already expressed this need since 2003, in its submitted file. to the government.

And you what do you think ?

Henri K.
 
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