PLA inventory Tally

nationalism (in political field; extreme rigth) the worst crime that anyone could conmit. Its root of all real evil of today. Its pride-over ones country and that always lead into squables whit other nations. In reality it means genosides and wars, in internet it means flamewars and trolling.

In here we got to live together and is too relevant that pride is the biggest blinder that lead into figths. Some sort of minimal patriotism is another thing and beeing not shame on ones own country but nationalism is political "ism" that feeds such polical ideologies like Facism and Nazism that all feeds heavilly on national pride.

So what I want to hear and read is objectiveness and lately this thread has showed only subjective wievs.

And PS. as a moderator I shoot to everyone becouse I dont want to pick on to each members individually.

Oh, And I blame nationalism becouse otherwise I would have to blame you kids personally and that wouldnt be nice ...and anyway as you say it yourself, you are beeing proud of J-10, aka connecting j-10 to your nationalist feelings. Anyone taking part of international defence discussion knows that its a recepy for disaster.

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So your saying I cant be proud of the j-10 or chinese weapons? Its not like you arnt nationalistic. I bet if i created a china versus finland thread, you would claim finland is superior. Theres not a single person on this board whose views are 100% objective, which is qhy we have arguments.

Ok, do you want warning or not? Dont deliberatly seek confrontation about things that are commonly agreed long time ago. You can be proud, but dont megle your pride into the discussion. Anyone can be proud of their country but usually it takes age and inteligent to retain objectivines considering the pros and cons of differnet equipment. Sofar I have met only few members that can succeed in that.

Now If any more whining over this matter, I will remaind you all about some basic forum hierarcy issues of WHO TELLS WHAT IS FORBIDDEN AND WHO WILL OBEY!!!!!:nono: :nono:

MIGleader said:

So your saying I cant be proud of the j-10 or chinese weapons? Its not like you arnt nationalistic. I bet if i created a china versus finland thread, you would claim finland is superior. Theres not a single person on this board whose views are 100% objective, which is qhy we have arguments.

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What you're talking about isn't nationalism. You have every right to be proud of China's technological achievements, however it is not the same thing as nationalism, nor is it a justification for it.

Blind nationalism is basically proclaiming that your country is the best in the world because you were born in it. Like any -isms, it proclaims the importance of country above other things. I feel that people 100 years from now will look back on us and view nationalism like we view other "-isms", like Racism.

It opens the door to stuff you wouldn't have thought of doing in the first place (Like invading another country), because you believe that you are better than someone else. Is it the reason many wars occur? No. However, as Gollevainen rightly noted, it makes it a hell of a lot easier.

I believe the word that you're looking for is Patriotism. I don't believe that you are saying you think you have a right to blindly say that China is a country to be proud of because of its ability to kill people. I think you're trying to say that you have a right to be proud of your country (for whatever reasons you want) and you want to be able to express that pride where you want it. Maybe I'm nitpicking your words here but there is definitely a big difference between Nationalism and Patriotism, and there is a reason why we aren't a fan of the former especially on a board where no country-bashing or overly political discourse is allowed.

That said, try to figure out where the top mod here is coming from before... unpleasant consequences occur. I have the feeling that he's starting to lose his famous kind streak.

I see what you mean. however, if gollevainen does not believe my claim of 100 j-10s, he should refute it with his own argument, rather than trying to blame me of having nationalistic feelings. G, we were having a military debate. So please dont turn it into a matter of behaviour. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with a moderator over a military issue

now, i will continue my proof:
Once again, I will cite a sinodefence article

The report confirmed the earlier speculation that China had received 54 Salyut-made AL-31FP turbofan engines for a test fleet of J-10s between 2002 and 2004. Later Salyut, through Rosoboroneksport, successfully negotiated the sale of the engine for mass production of the fighter aircraft.

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This means salyut has a contract to continue delievering the engine beyond the orginal 54, so china can keep producing j-10.

There is a famous question from, I think either Roosevelt or Hoover, "why are Acedemic Arguments fought so bitterly? Ans: Because the stakes are so small"

If we ever had a candidate for this, the above would have to be a contender.

All we can tell from an order like this is that a number of engines have been ordered, the why is a very different matter.

If you stop thinking of them as Weapons systems and start thinking about them as Machine Parts, other options easily spring to mind:

An upgrade on the previous design?

A design fault in the original batch (they will hardly put out a public product recall will they?)

Power plants for experimental varients or designs?

Practice units for PLAAF Engineering school?

The list can go on and on

Now come on ladies, calm down, relax, kiss and make up

yeas sampan, you said propaply clearer what i was saying.

Gollevainen said only, and only that you cannot provide assumptions or speculations as facts and that there isent any clear facts that 100+ J-10 exist. Only educated quesses that mostly bases on assumtions that are just too optimistic. And that optimism is mostly due nationalistic view over the matters that usually ignores all the negative "ifs" and doupts.

My own opinion is the one that anyone could possiply give in this situation, more than 50 but less than 100 J-10 is finished production line. Of how many of them is operational frontline service, I cannot say, I have no experience over what factors determs aircrfts operationaly in PLAAF. I think none of us can say anything clear over it.

Now that said, enough of this smart assness. Gollevainen uses now its divine position and says the last word of this issue. Now the conversation should continue over its orginal topic and if any offtopic post will appear, I close the thread and warn somebody! Understood?

SampanViking said:

There is a famous question from, I think either Roosevelt or Hoover, "why are Acedemic Arguments fought so bitterly? Ans: Because the stakes are so small"

If we ever had a candidate for this, the above would have to be a contender.

All we can tell from an order like this is that a number of engines have been ordered, the why is a very different matter.

If you stop thinking of them as Weapons systems and start thinking about them as Machine Parts, other options easily spring to mind:

An upgrade on the previous design?

A design fault in the original batch (they will hardly put out a public product recall will they?)

Power plants for experimental varients or designs?

Practice units for PLAAF Engineering school?

The list can go on and on

Now come on ladies, calm down, relax, kiss and make up

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None of the questions you asked requires as many engines cited by MIGleader since they are in mass production.

MIGleader said:

Later Salyut, through Rosoboroneksport, successfully negotiated the sale of the engine for mass production of the fighter aircraft.

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Mass production eliminates recall, experimental design, engineering school, and anything on your list...SampanViking, if you can name one plausible scenario on what else the PLAAF can do with a lot of newly built engines, then i will reconsider.

Gollevainen, I'm getting the feeling that you don't want China to have so many j10s

Why would i think it that way? If i would have to decide, china would have over 1000 J-10, becouse thats what they need...Im only too old for self deception. Thats why I want to think the best realible figure, not best 'what if' figure, which the 100 example crearly presents.

100 j-10 is not the most optimistic number. Assuming that CAC completed delivery of the original 54 in early 2004, and pumps j-10s at 3 a month, China could theoretically have as many as 130-140 j-10s right now. Compared to this, 100 is not so unreasonable. But i know the conditions I give are less realistic, so I go with 100.

Now, early J-10s were deployed to CFTTC for training, but they are gone by now.

experimental prototypes that we do not know of may exist, but htese might be using ws-10a and not al-31.