East China Sea Air Defense ID Zone

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Blitzo

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I think you think war is a video game, war is horrible my friend, is horrible, and you do not need to start a war just because in a past war a nations killed each other.

Wars are not something we want do i ask you are you going to be affected if there is a war between China and Japan?
Do you think a war is good a video game, i know some people play games of war in the sentakus, i know that but i will tell you war is no game.

Japan has not blinked neither will give the islands to China simple like that, if they do it will be with a big pressure by the US but a war will be a huge thing and the Japanese will use logic to avoid one.


Wars are no game only a person who is bad in the brain or insane can want a war when there are such beautiful things in life

or do you think Japanese Children need to endure a war?
No my friend the odds we are discussing are high for that reason the Japanese sent a protest to China and that was the right thing to do to avoid wars, you think Japan blinked because i am sure you have no friends in Japan who can suffer is there is a war or do you have friends? tell me what you gain by saying Japan blinked?

I also don't want to see a war. I have friends of many ethnicities and many countries, including Japan.

However I also understand this is a territorial dispute, and that both nations will try to push each other as far as they can while avoiding war. China doesn't want war. I hope Japan doesn't want war either.


However Japan started this by arresting that fisherman in 2010 and then buying the islands last year. If that didn't happen then none of this would have occurred.
But Japan did press China on its claims to the islands, and China had to respond. Are you suggesting China should have just shrugged and let it go?



So what do I gain by saying Japan "blinked first"? nothing. I'm only speaking what happened. China played a good card in this territorial dispute, exactly because they can erode Japan's claim without firing a shot.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
I also don't want to see a war. I have friends of many ethnicities and many countries, including Japan.

However I also understand this is a territorial dispute, and that both nations will try to push each other as far as they can while avoiding war. China doesn't want war. I hope Japan doesn't want war either.


However Japan started this by arresting that fisherman in 2010 and then buying the islands last year. If that didn't happen then none of this would have occurred.
But Japan did press China on its claims to the islands, and China had to respond. Are you suggesting China should have just shrugged and let it go?



So what do I gain by saying Japan "blinked first"? nothing. I'm only speaking what happened. China played a good card in this territorial dispute. Simple.
My point is China can not be claiming around the world it has disputes with their neighbors and claim to grab land by force, if you know how WWII started you will understand what i mean, China`s only way is by dialogue, this posture of sending fighters is no way a good move, it only increases the likelihood of war and the likelihood that if China gets the Senkaku, they will try again and again, and if you know WWII you know where it will lead, China can not and won`t push the Americans from Asia, WWIII means a big thing that no one will enjoy no one.

The US is here to stay and Japan has no blinked they did the right thing, people who wants Japan to act more aggressively do not understand the odds we are witnessing, you are talking about two nuclear powers and a third nation that can become nuclear if pushed.
I have Chinese family too some cousins of mine but i have Japanese family too i do not care about what happened in WWII, peace is for all the best thing wars won`t make a better world.

Believe me this ID zone is creating conflict not peace, best is dialogue, if we want to live in a beautiful world already polluted and in danger by contamination and wars why we need another war?
Its crazy for me.
Just for a general to send his J-11s and brag?
 

Blitzo

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My point is China can not be claiming around the world it has disputes with their neighbors and claim to grab land by force, if you know how WWII started you will understand what i mean, China`s only way is by dialogue,

Say that to India and Pakistan. Or Japan and South Korea.

Fact is, territorial disputes are real. Sure it's nice to say that they should be resolved by dialogue, and I agree. But what dialogue can be said in this case?


this posture of sending fighters is no way a good move, it only increases the likelihood of war and the likelihood that if China gets the Senkaku, they will try again and again, and if you know WWII you know where it will lead, China can not and won`t push the Americans from Asia, WWIII means a big thing that no one will enjoy no one.

Japan has already claimed it will shoot down drones that enter disputed airspace and they already have a wide ADIZ. China is matching it. If Japan never made those statements and never had such a wide ADIZ do you think China would make such a move as well?



The US is here to stay and Japan has no blinked they did the right thing, people who wants Japan to act more aggressively do not understand the odds we are witnessing, you are talking about two nuclear powers and a third nation that can become nuclear if pushed.
I have Chinese family too some cousins of mine but i have Japanese family too i do not care about what happened in WWII, peace is for all the best thing wars won`t make a better world.


Believe me this ID zone is creating conflict not peace, best is dialogue, if we want to live in a beautiful world already polluted and in danger by contamination and wars why we need another war?
Its crazy for me.
Just for a general to send his J-11s and brag?

Agreed, we should totally have peace. Japan who currently "administer" the island should recognize that it is under dispute and come to the negotiating table instead of claiming they will shoot down planes that enter its airspace, that's not helping anyone.


But what china is doing with this ADIZ is no different to what Japan has been doing for years. If you are actually looking for someone to blame for the last two or three year's of dispute over these couple of rocks, I'm afraid the onus is on Japan. They arrested a chinese fisherman. They bought the islands. They threatened to shoot down planes which entered the airspace.
Why? Didn't they all those acts would lead to higher chance of war?
It's just crazy for me.
Is it just for Abe to brag and claim he is "standing up" to china?
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
Japan has already claimed it will shoot down drones that enter disputed airspace and they already have a wide ADIZ. China is matching it. If Japan never made those statements and never had such a wide ADIZ do you think China would make such a move as well?

The islands are now administered by Japan, not China, i will give you an example, if Argentina sends Drones to Malvinas/ Falklands and England says we will shot down those drones who is in control the Islands?
England of course.

China`s big mistake is they are not making friends in fact they are isolating themselves, they are in fact bring more and more the US in the Pacific, basically sending more and more Japan to the US.

China has no right over the islands, only the United Nations can resolve the issue.

However the Chinese think that if they do not act quicker they will lose the Islands, why Because Japan knew about China`s intent. China is just raising the odds of Conflict and isolating politically, basically playing what the Americans want.

The USAF and Japan have a huge air force available and Japan has an air force not second to China niether a Navy inferior just look at the Izumo new aircraft carrier or pictures of their new stealth prototype.

So i will tell you simple like that sending J-11s won`t give the islands to China, it will only play the card better for the US to strength their alliance with Japan, Philippines and Vietnam and it will accelerate the purchases of F-35s and US weapons in the area.

Japan won`t relinquish the Islands so easily it is just Chicken what they are playing
 

Blitzo

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The islands are now administered by Japan, not China, i will give you an example, if Argentina sends Drones to Malvinas/ Falklands and England says we will shot down those drones who is in control the Islands?
England of course.

Not quite. There are citizens of the UK living on the Falklands/Malvinas.
The Diaoyu/senkaku islands are uninhabited. They are administered in only words and the monetary transcation that occurred last year.

If Japan decides to place troops or citizens on the islands, then that would be a major escalation.

So Japan claims it "owns" the islands, but it certainly doesn't "control" the islands. And with this recent announcement of ADIZ encompassing the islands, their control will only ebb further.



China`s big mistake is they are not making friends in fact they are isolating themselves, they are in fact bring more and more the US in the Pacific, basically sending more and more Japan to the US.

China has no right over the islands, only the United Nations can resolve the issue.

However the Chinese think that if they do not act quicker they will lose the Islands, why Because Japan knew about China`s intent. China is just raising the odds of Conflict and isolating politically, basically playing what the Americans want.

What the Chinese think is correct. If they do not act to reinforce their claims they will lose the islands. Simple as that. If you don't reinforce your claim then everyone will believe you don't care and are relinquishing your claim.
I'm not advocating war of course. the ADIZ is a good non-war step to reinforce their claim and erode Japan's claim.



The USAF and Japan have a huge air force available and Japan has an air force not second to China niether a Navy inferior just look at the Izumo new aircraft carrier or pictures of their new stealth prototype.

I think you should avoid comparing JASDF vs PLAAF and JMSDF vs PLAN because it's only going to end in a thread being locked, okay?


So i will tell you simple like that sending J-11s won`t give the islands to China, it will only play the card better for the US to strength their alliance with Japan, Philippines and Vietnam and it will accelerate the purchases of F-35s and US weapons in the area.

No one thinks sending in fighters over diaoyu will give the islands to china.
But it will sure as hell make it harder for Japan to claim the islands as theirs.

Will this move create stronger anti-China alliance? Too early to say. China made peaceful overtures last month at the ASEAN and APEC conferences, and China's economic relations with SCS countries are too important for them to fully drift into the US clout.

Japan might want to buy more jets from the US because of this. If they want then they can. It's their right.
It'll also be China's right to increase its own military funding.


Japan won`t relinquish the Islands so easily it is just Chicken what they are playing

By your logic, you think China should either relinquish its claim to the islands, or go to the UN, correct?

It is about as easy for China to relinquish its claim to the islands as it is for Japan. If you want to look at history and the post WWII partition, you'd see that the islands should technically be the PRCs or ROCs. Unfortunately the legal situation is completely irrelevant now.

Yes, China could go to the UN, but Japan is claiming there is no territorial dispute at all, that the island is simply theirs and that there is nothing to negotiate. That is typical territorial dispute talk.
So China is reciprocating.


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Also you've completely ignored the part where I basically explained why this dispute is Japan's fault. Why don't you address that part?
Here, I'll repeat it:
"I'm afraid the onus is on Japan. They arrested a chinese fisherman. They bought the islands. They threatened to shoot down planes which entered the airspace."
How about you address those points?
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
N
So Japan claims it "owns" the islands, but it certainly doesn't "control" the islands. And with this recent announcement of ADIZ encompassing the islands, their control will only ebb further.


They arrested a chinese fisherman. They bought the islands. They threatened to shoot down planes which entered the airspace."
How about you address those points?
Understand, the Islands are administered by Japan, they have arrested Chinese fisherman in Japanese claimed territory.
China can only have a right if the United Nations and the US, Europe and Russia ask to comply to Japan to leave those Islands.

China has only unilaterally claimed their Islands are theirs, as such they are raising the likelihood of war.

China has acted in a way only plays well for the US, since China now is seen as a bully and and aggressor just ask the people of the Philippines or Vietnam and of course Japan

Now the Indians and Japanese have a common cause to protect their territories from Chinese Claims that have no United Nations backing

As long as the Chinese Claims have no backing by the United Nations any claim of the islands is just a Chinese claim.

Japan has been administering the Islands since the 1900 as such does not matter China claims they are their islands, Japan does not agree, sending J-11s does not give China any right, in fact makes China act like the aggressor and in fact invader since Japan is only defending its air space.

as a territorial dispute China can only have legal rights if their neighbors think those islands are Chinese and the United nations agrees.

The US supports Japan otherwise you won`t see JASDF in the area.

Any way we will need to see what happens but China is not using a proper policy since bringing the US to the pacific is because the Chinese neighbors think China is the bully
 
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Blitzo

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Understand, the Islands are administered by Japan, they have arrested Chinese fisherman in Japanese claimed territory.
China can only have a right if the United Nations and the US, Europe and Russia ask to comply to Japan and leave those Islands.

China has only unilaterally claimed their Islands are theirs, as such they are raising the likelihood of war.

If you're saying that China has no claim to the islands and that China is the unilateral aggressor then I think we may as well stop talking, because if we can't agree on the simple fact that these islands are disputed then we can't even have a real conversation about it.

Actually, you know something, how about we just end this here.
 
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MiG-29

Banned Idiot
If you're saying that China has no claim to the islands and that China is the unilateral aggressor then I think we may as well stop talking, because if we can't agree on the simple fact that these islands are disputed then we can't even have a real conversation about it.


In the meantime, I suggest you read this article:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


It is one of the most comprehensive and balanced write ups from a western source I've seen regarding this dispute.

I will put you an example if a guy Y is occupying a house that a X Guy claim too and he says that that house was his ofhis grand grand dad but this other guy Y guy`s grand grand took from him do you think if guy x enters to his house by force and claim it is his do you think the police won`t arrest him guy X? and more if the guy x kill the guy y in the house?

Same China, China needs United States and United Nations backing we live in a world with Rules no matter how just are Chinese claims they need to work with the international community backing, same you you need a court to defend your rights specially in a dispute
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
The islands are now administered by Japan, not China, i will give you an example, if Argentina sends Drones to Malvinas/ Falklands and England says we will shot down those drones who is in control the Islands?
England of course.
Japan administers Diaoyu, but the islands' sovereignty is in dispute. The US doesn't recognize the Diaoyu islands as Japanese territory, that's why our State Department has consistently said we don't get involved in sovereignty disputes. Most of the nations, along with the UN, recognizes Falklands as UK territory, so the Brits have every right to shoot down uninvited crafts.

China`s big mistake is they are not making friends in fact they are isolating themselves, they are in fact bring more and more the US in the Pacific, basically sending more and more Japan to the US.
The US pivot to Asia was going to happen regardless of Sino-Japanese relations. Asia is where the actions are, and China is an emerging superpower. If you are the existing superpower, where would you be?

China has no right over the islands, only the United Nations can resolve the issue.
That's not accurate; Just like any other nation in the world, China has the right to resolve her territorial disputes with her neighbors. The UN can only get involved if asked, and since China has veto power, the UN will not be welcomed, unless the Chinese say so.

However the Chinese think that if they do not act quicker they will lose the Islands, why Because Japan knew about China`s intent. China is just raising the odds of Conflict and isolating politically, basically playing what the Americans want.
I don't think China is doing what the US wants, because America doesn't want conflicts between her most important Asian ally and her biggest trading partner. Peace, trade, and commerce is what the US desire, not political and military tensions that can lead to WWIII.

The USAF and Japan have a huge air force available and Japan has an air force not second to China niether a Navy inferior just look at the Izumo new aircraft carrier or pictures of their new stealth prototype.
Japan has a first-class military, and currently better than China's. However, Japan's advantage will erode in the next two or three decades, and China's military will be stronger. That's probably why Japan rather settle the issue today, while China is willing to simply contest sovereignty and wait. Time is on China's side.

So i will tell you simple like that sending J-11s won`t give the islands to China, it will only play the card better for the US to strength their alliance with Japan, Philippines and Vietnam and it will accelerate the purchases of F-35s and US weapons in the area.
Agreed. China can't take Diaoyu back by force- for now. Who knows what she could or could not do in 30 years. Also, we have alliances with Japan and the Philippines, but not Vietnam. It's true Vietnam would love an alliance with the US, but I'm not sure if the reverse is true, because that might be too provocative a move to risk Sino-American relations.

Japan won`t relinquish the Islands so easily it is just Chicken what they are playing
Agreed. Neither Japan nor China would give up claims on Diaoyu islands, so the pot simmers and gets hotter. Interesting times.
 

Blackstone

Brigadier
I will put you an example if a guy Y is occupying a house that a X Guy claim too and he says that that house was his ofhis grand grand dad but this other guy Y guy`s grand grand took from him do you think if guy x enters to his house by force and claim it is his do you think the police won`t arrest him guy X? and more if the guy x kill the guy y in the house?
China has said for a long time that she was forced to sign unequal treaties and give up land. Diayou and parts of the Russian Far East are prime examples of such treaties. China has settled with Russia and gave up her claims for territory lost in the RSE, but she hasn't given up the Diaoyu islands, and the argument goes on.

Same China, China needs United States and United Nations backing we live in a world with Rules no matter how just are Chinese claims they need to work with the international community backing, same you you need a court to defend your rights specially in a dispute
UNCLOS allows ANY nation to opt out of arbitration, so China doesn't need UN to deal with her own territory disputes. China does need to step carefully where a bigger giant (US) roams, but she's free to settle her disputes with her neighbors without the UN, as long as it's by peaceful means.
 
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