J-20 5th Gen Fighter Thread IV (Closed to posting)

AeroEngineer said:

Maya said that WS-15 will start flight testing on J-20 around 2016-2017. Mass production will begin in 2023-2025.

This is why I believe the Su-35 deal, China uses the 117S as the interim engine for J-20 from 2017-2022.

Then use WS-15.

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Sorry... but I have to disagree. The sales of the Su-35 didn't spec the individual sales of the engines so I would assume that 2 engines for every 1 Su-35... and that sales is for 24 aircraft. So if the Chinese buy those aircraft, they would have to dismantle the engines from the Su-35, then store those Su-35 somewhere in the warehouse and use the dismantled engines for the J-20. This is true legit ways, because I don't recall a technology transfer or that the Chinese could start building their own 117S. However, if the Chinese started reverse engineer those 117S, then that is another matter altogether, which again will put themselves into more bad publicity (although the Chinese can really ignored that, but it is not a good image afterall). Secondly... unless the 117S design is specifically similar to what the J-20 had been designed around, then the Chinese would need a major redesign of the fuselage to allow the 117S to be put into. And again, unless the WS-15 is similar in dimensions, components, etc with the 117S, then the J-20 needed to go through another major redesign to be compatible with the WS-15.

imo size of the engine is not big problem with 3D printer .they just change a software to make it.except too big .

hwy401 said:

imo size of the engine is not big problem with 3D printer .they just change a software to make it.except too big .

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The engine don't just come as a single component. Dimensions of the engine is one of the thing to look into, also the compatibility of the sub-components, the electronics, the connection point, and many other things. Plus engine is one thing, the entire fuselage of the aircraft to accommodate the engine is another thing altogether.

rhino123 said:

Sorry... but I have to disagree. The sales of the Su-35 didn't spec the individual sales of the engines so I would assume that 2 engines for every 1 Su-35... and that sales is for 24 aircraft.

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Did I miss the news that this sale is confirmed?

rhino123 said:

Sorry... but I have to disagree. The sales of the Su-35 didn't spec the individual sales of the engines so I would assume that 2 engines for every 1 Su-35... and that sales is for 24 aircraft. So if the Chinese buy those aircraft, they would have to dismantle the engines from the Su-35, then store those Su-35 somewhere in the warehouse and use the dismantled engines for the J-20. This is true legit ways, because I don't recall a technology transfer or that the Chinese could start building their own 117S. However, if the Chinese started reverse engineer those 117S, then that is another matter altogether, which again will put themselves into more bad publicity (although the Chinese can really ignored that, but it is not a good image afterall). Secondly... unless the 117S design is specifically similar to what the J-20 had been designed around, then the Chinese would need a major redesign of the fuselage to allow the 117S to be put into. And again, unless the WS-15 is similar in dimensions, components, etc with the 117S, then the J-20 needed to go through another major redesign to be compatible with the WS-15.

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And what about the fact that the J-20 currently uses an AL-31, or a variant of it? Not saying that they will use the 117S as an interim engine, or that China is even getting Su-35s (the deal seems to be in perpetual limbo, and I have my suspicions), but the scenario itself is not implausible.

latenlazy said:

And what about the fact that the J-20 currently uses an AL-31, or a variant of it? Not saying that they will use the 117S as an interim engine, or that China is even getting Su-35s (the deal seems to be in perpetual limbo, and I have my suspicions), but the scenario itself is not implausible.

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If worse comes to worst Saturn 117S could be used for initial batch of J-20s . But in that case China would have to accept kinematic disadvantage of J-20 compared to PAK FA and later FGFA because Sukhoi plans to use new and more powerful engine for operational version .

lostsoul said:

Did I miss the news that this sale is confirmed?

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Yes, it is confirmed by both governments that.... there is no sales.

lostsoul said:

Did I miss the news that this sale is confirmed?

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Nooo... the sales is not confirm... or if there is any talk on the sales.

latenlazy said:

And what about the fact that the J-20 currently uses an AL-31, or a variant of it? Not saying that they will use the 117S as an interim engine, or that China is even getting Su-35s (the deal seems to be in perpetual limbo, and I have my suspicions), but the scenario itself is not implausible.

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thunderchief said:

If worse comes to worst Saturn 117S could be used for initial batch of J-20s . But in that case China would have to accept kinematic disadvantage of J-20 compared to PAK FA and later FGFA because Sukhoi plans to use new and more powerful engine for operational version .

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Well... I have to correct myself before any more confusion from my previous post (my bad.), anyway, I do not think that China had signed any deal with Russia on the sales of Su-35... China might be interested in the 117S which technology could definitely be used to speed up progress on the WS-15. Other than that, I do not really think China is too much interested in the Su-35, no matter how good the plane is.

As to fitting in a 117S into the J-20, not saying it would not happen... but first thing first... you would need to have the 117S (which China don't have and Russia is not selling unless China buy the Su-35), secondly... fitting any engine component into an aircraft is not like fitting in an mp3 player into your car. You need to be specifically designed for the engine. So unless the 117S is similar in dimension, components, connection, etc etc to the WS-15, it would means pretty large modification of the J-20 needed to be carried out in order to allowed for the WS-15 to be fitted once ready.

I have the feeling that since AL-31 was seen on the J-20, the basic fitting and connection, entry point etc, of the WS-15 should be similar to the AL-31 (or whatever variant of that engine J-20 is flying with now) despite it being a more powerful engine. And unless 117S shared that, I don't think it is plausible.

rhino123 said:

Well... I have to correct myself before any more confusion from my previous post (my bad.), anyway, I do not think that China had signed any deal with Russia on the sales of Su-35... China might be interested in the 117S which technology could definitely be used to speed up progress on the WS-15. Other than that, I do not really think China is too much interested in the Su-35, no matter how good the plane is.

As to fitting in a 117S into the J-20, not saying it would not happen... but first thing first... you would need to have the 117S (which China don't have and Russia is not selling unless China buy the Su-35), secondly... fitting any engine component into an aircraft is not like fitting in an mp3 player into your car. You need to be specifically designed for the engine. So unless the 117S is similar in dimension, components, connection, etc etc to the WS-15, it would means pretty large modification of the J-20 needed to be carried out in order to allowed for the WS-15 to be fitted once ready.

I have the feeling that since AL-31 was seen on the J-20, the basic fitting and connection, entry point etc, of the WS-15 should be similar to the AL-31 (or whatever variant of that engine J-20 is flying with now) despite it being a more powerful engine. And unless 117S shared that, I don't think it is plausible.

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I'm actually not sure that you can use the technology in one jet engine design to help advance another. It's not like the WS-15 is still on the drawing boards. Like your analogy with cars and mp3s, design features and even base technologies are not always plug and play.

The 117S is a derivative of the AL-31, so it's far more likely the 117S shares similar dimensions to the AL-31 than the WS-15. The WS-15 itself doesn't need to have the same fitting and connections as the AL-31. The J-20's airframe could just be designed to fit both, or to use custom made removable adapter pieces. After all, these are prototypes. They will probably have to do some redesigning of the fuselage regardless to fit the WS-15 as it is.

thunderchief said:

If worse comes to worst Saturn 117S could be used for initial batch of J-20s . But in that case China would have to accept kinematic disadvantage of J-20 compared to PAK FA and later FGFA because Sukhoi plans to use new and more powerful engine for operational version .

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Goes without saying, except I'm not sure the J-20 will be completed before the WS-15 is ready. Guess this is where my doubts about the theory lies.