Chinese Engine Development
- Thread starter jackbh
- Start date
Of course it is not that simple, but I also think it isn't too deficult if PLAAF wants to do that. As everyone has known, China cancelled a lot of engine project in the past, but there was not a single one cancelled because China failed to resolve its nozzle problem.
It is just a assumption without prove. But I do feel it is odd that there are too many newly-built J-11 photos showed that they still use "AL-31F" engines though China has stopped importing AL-31Fs since 2005.
The stock pile is also a possibility, but it can hardly explain why J-10 doesn't have so many spare engines so China has to import about 100 AL-31FNs for J-10 annually.
The another possibility is that all these internet photos and posts(almost all of them are fakes and nonsense) we have seen from Chinese military fan's forums after 2006 are just some misinformation made by Chinese internet counter-intelligence departments. China government has tightened its control of internet since then and I doubt there still are some insiders dare to leak any true information of Chinese weapon system without governmental permission. They just want western intelligence to believe that China is still in struggle of developing third generation fighter's engines like WS-10, so nobody may believe that China will be able to build a engine for the fourth generation fighters.
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I don't think WS-10A has delayed anything. It's obviously a variant of WS-10, it is supposed to be developed for years. Just as many posters here have pointed out, the numbers of guide vanes of a WS-10A is more than a WS-10's, that means a WS-10A at least has some improvement in its fans, maybe in its core, though which part we cannot see from outside. I think the works of such kind of modification is harder than redesigning a nozzle. As I known, the function of a nozzle to a engine is to adjust the pressure of its afterburner by controlling its convergence.(a convergent-divergent nozzle or a ejector nozzle can also absorb energy from exhaust gas and convert it into thrust), it is comparably simpler than modifying the fan. GE has already designed a optional ejector nozzle for its F-110 engines.
I have the impression that I have known that since my first glimpse of the photo of WS-10A and found the position of its accessories on the engine is identical with AL-31FN, which is known as the engine of J-10.
Of course it is not that simple, but I also think it isn't too deficult if PLAAF wants to do that. As everyone has known, China cancelled a lot of engine project in the past, but there was not a single one cancelled because China failed to resolve its nozzle problem.
It is just a assumption without prove. But I do feel it is odd that there are too many newly-built J-11 photos showed that they still use "AL-31F" engines though China has stopped importing AL-31Fs since 2005.
The stock pile is also a possibility, but it can hardly explain why J-10 doesn't have so many spare engines so China has to import about 100 AL-31FNs for J-10 annually.
The another possibility is that all these internet photos and posts(almost all of them are fakes and nonsense) we have seen from Chinese military fan's forums after 2006 are just some misinformation made by Chinese internet counter-intelligence departments. China government has tightened its control of internet since then and I doubt there still are some insiders dare to leak any true information of Chinese weapon system without governmental permission. They just want western intelligence to believe that China is still in struggle of developing third generation fighter's engines like WS-10, so nobody may believe that China will be able to build a engine for the fourth generation fighters.
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I don't think WS-10A has delayed anything. It's obviously a variant of WS-10, it is supposed to be developed for years. Just as many posters here have pointed out, the numbers of guide vanes of a WS-10A is more than a WS-10's, that means a WS-10A at least has some improvement in its fans, maybe in its core, though which part we cannot see from outside. I think the works of such kind of modification is harder than redesigning a nozzle. As I known, the function of a nozzle to a engine is to adjust the pressure of its afterburner by controlling its convergence.(a convergent-divergent nozzle or a ejector nozzle can also absorb energy from exhaust gas and convert it into thrust), it is comparably simpler than modifying the fan. GE has already designed a optional ejector nozzle for its F-110 engines.
I have the impression that I have known that since my first glimpse of the photo of WS-10A and found the position of its accessories on the engine is identical with AL-31FN, which is known as the engine of J-10.
You Will Find An Good Answer From This Report:
2010年11月13日 09:20:32 来源： 证券时报
从1956年小小的高温材料所，到目前年收入近3亿元，钢研高纳（300034）已成为我国高温合金领域技术水平最为先进、生产种类最为齐全的企业之一。目前，公司每年实现20%以上的稳定增长，但为了向世界级高温合金企业迈进，钢研高纳正在上下游企业中寻找目标，希望通过兼并重组实现跨越式发展。近日，钢研高纳总经理赵明汉首次面对媒体，讲述了公司在高温合金材料领域发展壮大的历程。
2010-11-13 15:36 上传下载附件 (22.88 KB)
国产歼11B战斗机已采用国产“太行”大推力涡扇发动机
2010-11-13 15:36 上传下载附件 (48.91 KB)
在上届珠海航展上亮相的太行大推力涡扇发动机
“最老”创业板企业的国家使命
钢研高纳于2002年成立，是由钢研院高温材料研究所和粉末冶金研究室的核心优质资产合并组建而成，实际控制人是国资委，主要从事航空航天材料中高温合金材料的研发、生产和销售，其前身钢研院高温材料所于1956年创建。从最初计划到主板上市，到后来改为到中小板上市，再到盯准创业板，直到2009年12月在创业板成功上市，历经54年风风雨雨，钢研高纳堪称创业板中历史最悠久的上市公司。
与众不同的出身，自然注定了与众不同的使命。作为中国航空航天材料供应产业链中的重要一员，钢研高纳的业务已涉及国家战略利益。“既要完成国家的任务，还要产生效益。”赵明汉不断强调公司承担的国家使命。
据介绍，我国第三代战机中的发动机有一吨多重，涉及一万多个部件，其中有一个不可或缺的部件由钢研高纳生产。该部件以前我国不能生产，但由于涉及军工机密，国外不卖给我国，研发该部件的任务落在了钢研高纳，公司最终不辱使命。目前，国内仅钢研高纳能生产此部件。刚开始每年仅生产几公斤，供一台或两台发动机用，到2007年，该部件需求突然放量，需要供给60多台份，2008、2009年需求更是达到了100多台份。公司紧急筹集资金、上设备，但生产线都有建设周期和生产调制合格期，需要一个漫长的过程。
在此后的3年时间里，从材料所到下属课题组的成员投入了大量的精力，3年时间很少有休息。同时，因为国家的项目批复需要时间，钢研高纳就自己先行垫钱自主研发。功夫不负有心人，2009年公司的供货量达到了国家预期的产量，满足了用户要求。
“公司高管是给股东打工。钢研高纳是国有企业，以前的股东是国家，材料研究涉及国防军工和国家安全，必须对国家负责，这是一种使命；现在公司在创业板上市，募集了5.5亿的资金，我们的净资产也变为了8个多亿，股东里面也加入了普通投资者，他们投了钱，我们就也要对他们负责，不能打折扣，这是我们的另一种使命。”赵明汉的言语中充满使命感和责任。
民品比重将提升至70%
钢研高纳目前的产品主要是铸造高温合金、变形高温合金产品和新型高温合金，公司拥有铸造高温合金产能920吨，变形高温合金150吨，新型高温合金15吨。2009年钢研高纳营业收入近3亿元，60%以上的产品面向航空航天领域的客户。
在公司收入结构中，军品占了60%，民品为40%。赵明汉认为，军工产品很重要，需求很稳定，给公司带来了稳定的销售收入和净利润；而且，公司所处航空航天材料领域是国家重点支持的产业之一，未来必将受益于中国航空航天领域的高速发展和大幅投入。但其中的弊端也很明显，即规模上存在限制，一年的需求只有那么多，增长幅度不可能太大，与公司日渐壮大的生产规模不相匹配。如果单纯依靠军品市场，钢研高纳未来几年的发展速度必然会受影响，而民用领域广阔的市场发展空间，让钢研高纳看到了希望。
钢研高纳在创业板上市的募集资金将主要用于航空航天用粉末及变形高温金属制品、航空航天用钛铝金属材料制品、新型高温固体自润滑复合材料及制品、铸造高温合金高品质精铸件、真空水平连铸高温合金母合金等项目。除了满足航空航天领域新制装备的材料需求，公司还将开拓汽车发动机用高温合金增压器涡轮精铸件、化工等行业泵阀精铸件及汽车发动机零件精铸件等民用产品市场。显然，除了继续夯实在航空航天材料领域的基础，钢研高纳已经加大了在民品领域的拓展。
赵明汉谈道，本次募资项目将是公司实现跨越式发展的重要一步，对公司市场竞争力的提升和长远发展具有重要意义，到2014年上述几大项目达产之后，公司民品所占收入比例将提升至70%，而军品将下降到30%。
他尤其对汽车领域产品的未来寄予厚望，因为汽车增压器需求以每年30%的速度递增。这是一个对高温合金需求较大的市场，全世界一年增压器涡轮的需求超过900多万件，国内每年有2千吨材料的市场需求，并且每年都在增长，这对钢研高纳的发展扩张有很大的吸引力。但目前整个行业比较混乱，鱼龙混杂，一些小的乡镇企业也做，质量参差不齐。
“以我们的技术，公司做这个行业的领导者没问题。”赵明汉坦言，公司正在考虑扩大生产规模。钢研高纳的高温合金增压器涡轮用材在传统技术上会有所改进，使材料质量和生产效率更高，材料成本也会因此降下来，最终产品使用寿命会更长。他透露，公司产品以高品质低成本优势抢占市场的策略已经确定，将考虑与一些专业的销售公司合作进行产品推广。
至高无上的另类激励
比较另类的是，钢研高纳是目前创业板中唯一没有实行股权激励的公司。虽然拥有知识经济时代视若至宝的高精尖人才，但创业板轰轰烈烈的造富神话与他们无关。
“在现有的条件下，对某个人拿出太多的金钱奖励是不太现实的，但钢研高纳已经竭尽所能，包括尽可能高的公司待遇，和国家级荣誉的精神奖励。”对于政策和体制上的束缚，赵明汉并没有表示太多的担心。公司的实际控制人是国资委，每年会评选国家级先进个人，公司技术人员荣获了很多荣誉，这是无价的。他感慨地说，“像我们这些做研究的，更看重人生价值的体现，我们是给国家打工，这种崇高的国家荣誉感不是每个人都有机会获得的，是至高无上的。”
在“另类激励”作用下，股权激励的缺失并没有给钢研高纳过去的发展带来过多影响。从1985年到现在，20多年来，钢研高纳的业绩稳步攀升，没有一年下滑过。这让赵明汉引以为傲。
他谈道：“公司的发展非常稳健、底气足、运作规范，大家为一个共同的目标而奋斗，每年都能超额完成当年目标。在创业板里横向比较，钢研高纳每年的业绩增长并不算太突出，但从纵向比较，公司一直在发展，每年都上一个小台阶，且正在向世界级高温合金企业迈进。”
尽管如此，体制的束缚不可避免地造成了一些技术人员的流失。为了今后的长远发展和宏伟目标，钢研高纳必然面临体制上的彻底变革。
赵明汉坦言，目前公司给外界的感觉是激励制度不到位，强度不够，核心技术人员没有积极性。今年的股东大会上，已经有股东提议解决公司高管层和核心技术人员的股权激励问题，公司也意识到了这个问题，正在积极地与大股东、主管部门沟通协商，寻求切实可行的具体方案。而方案面临的主要问题是定价和行权条件，行权条件定太高，企业员工会觉得虚，影响积极性，定低了审批又通不过。虽然左右为难，具体的实施方案也还没有定下来，没有具体的时间表，但赵明汉表示，有信心交出一份让大家都满意的答卷。
Google Translation:
Small high-temperature materials from the 1956 to the current annual income of nearly 3 million, Steel Research Gaona (300 034) has become a high-temperature alloys of the most advanced areas of technology, production types, one of the most complete. Currently, more than 20% achieve an annual steady growth, but to a world-class enterprises into high-temperature alloys, steel research Gaona is on the upstream and downstream enterprises find the target, hope through mergers and acquisitions to achieve leapfrog development. Recently, high-sodium, general manager of Iron and Steel Research Zhaoming Han for the first time to face the media, about the company in the field of high-temperature alloy development and growth process.
2010-11-13 15:36 uploadDownload attachment (22.88 KB)
J-11B fighter aircraft have been made using domestic "Taihang" turbofan engine high-thrust
2010-11-13 15:36 uploadDownload attachment (48.91 KB)
Zhuhai air show appearance in the last row is too large thrust turbofan engine
"Oldest" national mission GEM Enterprises
Steel Institute was established in 2002 with high sodium, high-temperature materials by steel IAS Research Institute and the core of powder metallurgy high-quality assets through the merger, the actual controller is the SASAC, mainly in aerospace materials research and development of high temperature alloys , production and sales, its predecessor, the steel high-temperature materials IAS was created in 1956. From initial planning to the Main Board listing, the listing was changed to small plates, to take aim, GEM, until December 2009 was successfully listed on the GEM, after 54 years of ups and downs, steel, called the GEM research in high-sodium the oldest listed companies.
Different origin, different natural doomed mission. As aerospace materials supply chain in an important one, is satisfied that the business of Iron and Steel Research has been involved in the high national strategic interests. "We must complete the task of the State, but also have benefits." Zhao Minghan repeatedly emphasized that the company assumed the national mission.
According to reports, China's third generation fighter engine in there is a ton of multiple, involving a total of multiple components, including an indispensable component is satisfied by the high production of Iron and Steel Research. Before China can not produce the part, but as it involves military secrets, not to sell abroad in China, R & D component of the task falls on the study of high steel satisfied, the company ultimately fail in their mission. At present, only the steel of this study can produce parts with high sodium. The beginning of the production only a few kilograms per year for one or two engines, by 2007, the part needs a sudden heavy volume, you need to supply more than 60 copies, 2008,2009 demand is reached in more than 100 copies. Companies to raise emergency funds, the equipment, but production lines are qualified construction period and production of modulation requires a long process.
Over the next three years, from the material under the Task Force members to put a lot of energy, 3 years, there is little rest. Also, because the state approved the project takes time, Steel Research Gaona first Dianqian independent research and development on their own. Hard work pays off in 2009, the company's shipments to the state expected production to meet the user requirements.
"Company executives are working to shareholders. Iron and Steel Research Gaona state-owned enterprises, the former shareholders of the state, materials related to national defense and national security, the State must be responsible, this is a mission; now the company listed on the GEM, 5.5 billion of funds raised, we also changed the net assets of 8 billion, which also joined the common shareholders of investors, who vote the money, we have for they are responsible and can not be discounted, this is another of our mission. "Zhaoming Han language is full of a sense of mission and responsibility.
Products for civilian use will increase to 70% the proportion of
Steel research products with high sodium current is casting high temperature alloys, wrought superalloy products and new high temperature alloys, the company has a casting capacity of 920 tons high-temperature alloys, wrought superalloy 150 tons, 15 tons of new high-temperature alloys. Iron and Steel Research Gaona 2009 revenue of nearly 3 billion, 60% of the products for aerospace customers.
In the company's revenue structure, the military accounted for 60%, 40% civilian. Zhaoming Han Ren Wei, military products is very important, demand is stable, to bring a stable sales revenue and net income; Moreover, the field of aerospace materials company which is one of the industries supported by the state, the future will benefit from the China Aviation The rapid development of aerospace and a substantial investment. But the disadvantages are also obvious that there are limits on the scale of a year's demand is only so much growth can not be too large, and the company's growing scale of production does not match. If you rely solely on the military market, the Iron and Steel Research development of high rate of satisfaction in the coming years will surely be affected, while the broad market areas of the development of civilian space for Iron and Steel Research Gaona see hope.
Iron and Steel Research Gaona listed on the GEM to raise funds will be mainly for the aerospace and deformation of high-temperature powder metal products, aerospace aluminum with a titanium metal products, new high-temperature solid self-lubricating composite materials and products, high-quality precision casting superalloy casting, vacuum casting and high temperature alloys, master alloys level projects. In addition to the new system to meet the aerospace materials and equipment needs, the company will open up car engine with turbocharger turbine superalloy precision castings, and chemical industry and automotive engine valve casting parts precision casting, and other civilian market. Clearly, in addition to consolidating the basis for the field of aerospace materials, steel, high-sodium has been increased research in the civilian areas of expansion.
Zhaoming Han Tan Road, fund-raising project of this company by leaps and bounds will be an important step in the development of the company to enhance market competitiveness and long-term development of great significance, in 2014, several major projects of the above products, the company civilian share of income proportion will increase to 70%, while the military will drop to 30%.
He particularly the future of automotive products, high hopes, because the car needs an annual booster a rate of 30%. This is a large market demand for high-temperature alloys, the world needs a year turbocharger turbine more than 900 million pieces, 2 one thousand tons per year of domestic market demand for the material, and growing every year, and this study of high steel satisfied that the development of expansion has great appeal. But the whole industry a bit confusing, quite a mixed bag, some small township enterprises do, the quality is uneven.
"With our technology, the company the industry leader to do this no problem." Zhaoming Han admitted that the company is considering expanding production scale. Iron and Steel Research Gaona turbocharger turbine superalloy materials used in the traditional technology will be improved so that higher material quality and production efficiency, material costs will also come down, the end product life will be longer. He said the company's products with high quality and low cost advantage to expand their market strategies have been identified and will consider a number of professional sales companies for product promotion.
Alternative incentive supreme
Comparing alternative is that steel is the study of high satisfaction is not only the implementation of the GEM equity incentive company. Although the era of knowledge economy has jealously guard the high-tech talent, but making the rich GEM vigorous myth has nothing to do with them.
"In the existing conditions, to one person too much money out of the reward is not realistic, but the Iron and Steel Research Gaona've tried everything, including the company the highest possible treatment, and national honor the spirit of the awards. "The policy and institutional constraints, Zhaoming Han did not express much worry. The actual control of the company are the SASAC, the annual selection of the advanced level of individuals, companies and technical personnel has won many honors, which is priceless. He sighed, "like us to do research, more attention to the embodiment of human values, we are working to the state, such a lofty national pride not everyone has access to, is paramount."
In the "alternative incentive" under the effect of lack of incentive stock options and Steel Institute did not give the development of high-sodium bring too much of the past. From 1985 to now, 20 years, inclusive of high-performance steel research steadily rising, there is no decline in the year before. This allows Zhao Minghan proud.
He talked about: "The company is growing very strong, emboldened enough, operation, and all for a common purpose, and the year exceeded targets every year. In the GEM in the horizontal comparison, the annual Iron and Steel Research results of high growth and inclusive not too prominent, but the longitudinal comparison, the company has been developing, on a small step each year, and are high-temperature alloys to the world-class enterprise forward. "
Nevertheless, the system inevitably led to a number of constraints and technical personnel loss. To future long-term development and the grand goal of Iron and Steel Research Gaona is bound to face a complete change on the system.
Zhaoming Han admitted that the company to the outside world the impression that the incentive system in place, and strong enough, the core technical staff lack of enthusiasm. This year's shareholder meeting, shareholder proposals to solve the company has senior management and core technical staff of the equity incentive problem, the company has recognized this problem and is actively working with major shareholders, communication and consultation with competent authorities to seek practical and concrete solutions. The main problem facing the program is the exercise price and conditions of vesting conditions set too high, employees will feel that is true, of enthusiasm, given the low and pass the examination and approval. Although the dilemma, a specific implementation plan has not yet been established, there is no specific timetable, but Zhaoming Han said the confidence to produce a satisfactory answer to everyone.
they got more AL-31F from the Russians a while ago as part of replacement for su-27/30 I think. Also, according to Kanwa, the Russians were still delivering the kits for J-11A as part of the original contract.
you might want to dial down on the conspiracy theories.
it was obvious that Taihang delay J-11B project. We saw a bunch of J-11Bs out on the airfields of SAC without engines.
maybe you should read maya's post and stop coming up with theories.I have the impression that I have known that since my first glimpse of the photo of WS-10A and found the position of its accessories on the engine is identical with AL-31FN, which is known as the engine of J-10.
The WP-14 is supposed to be used on the JL-9 as well, so I don't think there's anything to the idea of the engines not working out.
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
It would be great to hear something new but as is, the last time we saw the JL-9 flying around it had the same old WP-13. As far as I know nobody has made a peep about the WP-14 in a while, but that doesn't necessarily mean it was canceled, but to be honest, its kind of to be expected to not exactly be hopeful about Shenyang Liming....
I'm sure PLAAF has a store of AL-31Fs as spare engines just for in case a war breaks out. The Shenyang factory may also has some as a buffer for their mass production line. But do you think PLAAF would consume all its spare engines to support Shenyang factory's mass production? What would happen if they had done this and the war really broke out? And I don't think the buffer of AL-31Fs for J-11A can support 5 year's mass production of J-11A/B?
I think you did not notice I was talking of a department which job is to guard its "national secret" by means of conspiracy. If someone told me that he was sure that there wasn't any conspracy made by CIA, KGB and their Chinese counterpart, I would be more impressed.
There is no such thing as "Taihang" delayed anything because "Taihang" is, as maya has pointed out
, an official nickname of WS-10 series engines, include WS-10, WS-10A and maybe some variants unknown for public. I'm sure WS-10A is for J-10 but not sure it is also for J-11B."We"(if you are not a Chinese, I suppose) could not see anything on the airfields of SAC because there are guards out there and you would get arrested. We only can see blurred photos posted by would-be Chinese fans and struggled to figure out which of them might be real and which were just PSed.
If "we" did see there were some fuselages of J-11 on the airfield without engines, what could we conclude? It could be caused by anything. If J-11B are undergoing mass production, it is obvious the fuselages are produced in a different workshop apart from the assembly workshop, so what you see may be the buffer of two workshops. Or maybe there was a WS-10 caught fire when it ground tested on a J-11B so PLAAF demanded all engines demounted for check----and they soon found out it was caused by sucking in a cover of camera lens which some of Andrei Chang's friend casually left in the inlet of the plane when they sneaked in to shoot photos. Maybe it is just some normal procedure, the technical files demand the engines should be demounted for check after their first test flights.
The dismentlement of engines may be caused by some minor problem. Such as a connector of fuel line leaked several drop of fuel(it may caused by a careless worker who casually scratched the surface of the connector by his screwdriver), so each plane's engines has to be taken off for check.
As you wish, I have read two pages of posts from "Find More Posts by maya". I agree he has done a good job on seeking out likely reliable information from those Chinese fans' club's nonsense to feed this forum. I want to show my gratitude to him for his works here.
But I can also guarentee you that he is a good citizen if he is a Chinese for none of his single post has leaked any Chinese "national secret" which can not be found in various Chinese fans' website or has not been publicized by official media before
the Russians keep a close eye to make sure those engines get used as spares. It was amazing that they even managed to squeeze out 50+ AL-31F to use on the first batch of J-11Bs. Yes, it is widely acknowledged by now that the first production batch used AL-31Fs.
why don't you give real evidence instead of conspiracy theories?I think you did not notice I was talking of a department which job is to guard its "national secret" by means of conspiracy. If someone told me that he was sure that there wasn't any conspracy made by CIA, KGB and their Chinese counterpart, I would be more impressed.
huh??? this is all you can come up with? Do you know how ridiculous you sound?There is no such thing as "Taihang" delayed anything because "Taihang" is, as maya has pointed out
"We"(if you are not a Chinese, I suppose) could not see anything on the airfields of SAC because there are guards out there and you would get arrested. We only can see blurred photos posted by would-be Chinese fans and struggled to figure out which of them might be real and which were just PSed.
If "we" did see there were some fuselages of J-11 on the airfield without engines, what could we conclude? It could be caused by anything. If J-11B are undergoing mass production, it is obvious the fuselages are produced in a different workshop apart from the assembly workshop, so what you see may be the buffer of two workshops. Or maybe there was a WS-10 caught fire when it ground tested on a J-11B so PLAAF demanded all engines demounted for check----and they soon found out it was caused by sucking in a cover of camera lens which some of Andrei Chang's friend casually left in the inlet of the plane when they sneaked in to shoot photos. Maybe it is just some normal procedure, the technical files demand the engines should be demounted for check after their first test flights.
The dismentlement of engines may be caused by some minor problem. Such as a connector of fuel line leaked several drop of fuel(it may caused by a careless worker who casually scratched the surface of the connector by his screwdriver), so each plane's engines has to be taken off for check.
As you wish, I have read two pages of posts from "Find More Posts by maya". I agree he has done a good job on seeking out likely reliable information from those Chinese fans' club's nonsense to feed this forum. I want to show my gratitude to him for his works here.
But I can also guarentee you that he is a good citizen if he is a Chinese for none of his single post has leaked any Chinese "national secret" which can not be found in various Chinese fans' website or has not been publicized by official media before
maya is respected for his knowledge and you got nothing.