News on China's scientific and technological development.

Blackstone said:

Alright, let's do an exercise where I ask you to put on your "unbiased" hat and fairly consider the bold part in your second paragraph to see if you think reasonable people could agree it's a sweeping statement. I'll accept your considered opinion, if you agree to be fair and unbiased.

My concerns are:

• How many total "common" cases are there in a land of 400+ million middle-class citizens?
• How do you know the scenario you described is the "most common?"
  
• Of the total cases (yet to be named), how many have you personally seen?
• Do you have enough data to make that claim?

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What land of "400+ million middle class citizens"? We are talking about those Chinese who go overseas for study or work. More specifically, we are talking about people who are successful in their field and are sought after by various commercial and academic organizations.

You don't have to see every sunrise to know that the sun rises everyday. Likewise, I don't need to see every successful Chinese person to make a statement about them. Like I said, you either just don't know many successful Chinese, or you are being disingenious. Or both.

Very interesting that I just got the first hand experience today when I read these post about "polluted air and political "freedom" in professional recruitment." Here goes what happened to me and my friend.

I and this Chinese colleague went to lunch together. He asked whether I have watched the latest internal media cast about the recent international convention which I did not. He said that our "propagandist" mocked our Chinese rivalry of their cooperate culture while admitting their strength. FYI, my friend worked in that rival company for years before he joined my company for the very same thing being mocked (he did not want to continue working like that). He then asked me "have you ever thought of moving to another company?".

Is it a coincidence that this leaving idea just entered his mind today? I don't think so. He then said he is certainly not going back to that rivalry for the very reason he left, but he is thinking of somewhere else. We agreed that the mocking is unacceptable for a professional company that we worked in. It is appalling, not only to the outsider, but also to the insider and "defector". We are proud of our company being good in doing our business in a honest way. That was why we joined. We are ashamed if someone who represent our company mocking our competitors in areas unrelated to our business. We did not want to join these clowns.

What does it tell? It tells that one will loose all ones attractiveness when one plays dirty tricks, not only loosing attractions to outsiders (possible recruits), but also his own ranks and files. That is probably why those Chinese in the US decided to leave after years of western mocking and attacking on China on things that have no bearing to one another (bashing). The bottom line is these oversea Chinese know exactly what China is and is not, they don't need any self-righteous God-pretender to lecture them on something that they know very well. Doing that is counter productive, it will push them away rather than bringing them to stay.

solarz said:

What land of "400+ million middle class citizens"? We are talking about those Chinese who go overseas for study or work. More specifically, we are talking about people who are successful in their field and are sought after by various commercial and academic organizations.

You don't have to see every sunrise to know that the sun rises everyday. Likewise, I don't need to see every successful Chinese person to make a statement about them. Like I said, you either just don't know many successful Chinese, or you are being disingenious. Or both.

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The argument was over if you made a sweeping statement, so what's your judgement on post #1110?

Blackstone said:

Well said, Vesicles and you convinced me on your take of attracting and retaining talent topic.

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I appreciate that.

Blackstone said:

On cleaner rivers you spoke of earlier in our discussion, here's an article from Xinghua two days ago showing improvements in their water, but still falling far short of people's expectations.

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I don't think I mentioned anything on water pollution... maybe someone else did?

All this talk about working in China just reminds me that I was recruited by a major Chinese university in central China last year.

I got two emails from a dean at a well-known medical school early last year. I thought it was spam so deleted them without even reading them (we are getting spam invitations to conferences supposedly happening in China all the time). Then the dean emailed the Chair of my department and asked him if he could contact me. That was when I was called into the Chair's office one afternoon. He looked very concerned and asked me not to hesitate to tell him if there was anything that he could do to keep me here. I was totally confused and didn't know what to say. Then he showed me the email from that Chinese dean. Then I was like "I deleted those emails thinking they were spam". "It never came to my mind that I wanted to leave"........ then a light bulb went off in my head... I asked my Chair: "would it be too late for me to ask for a promotion? You know that tenure would most likely keep my here forever...". And my Chair said "well, it's too late... you should've begun with that...". Man! Just think that I could have been a tenured professor now (instead of just a tenure-track one) if I could just think a little faster... I'm still kicking myself in the behind now...

vesicles said:

All this talk about working in China just reminds me that I was recruited by a major Chinese university in central China last year.

I got two emails from a dean at a well-known medical school early last year. I thought it was spam so deleted them without even reading them (we are getting spam invitations to conferences supposedly happening in China all the time). Then the dean emailed the Chair of my department and asked him if he could contact me. That was when I was called into the Chair's office one afternoon. He looked very concerned and asked me not to hesitate to tell him if there was anything that he could do to keep me here. I was totally confused and didn't know what to say. Then he showed me the email from that Chinese dean. Then I was like "I deleted those emails thinking they were spam". "It never came to my mind that I wanted to leave"........ then a light bulb went off in my head... I asked my Chair: "would it be too late for me to ask for a promotion? You know that tenure would most likely keep my here forever...". And my Chair said "well, it's too late... you should've begun with that...". Man! Just think that I could have been a tenured professor now (instead of just a tenure-track one) if I could just think a little faster... I'm still kicking myself in the behind now...

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Well it's never too late to put your chair on the spot again. Change is difficult at first but there's no reason you need to spend your whole life in Texas especially if you would be better-appreciated elsewhere, where you and your children not a minority that the system tries to keep down.

manqiangrexue said:

Well it's never too late to put your chair on the spot again. Change is difficult at first but there's no reason you need to spend your whole life in Texas especially if you would be better-appreciated elsewhere, where you and your children not a minority.

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I am open to changes. While I respect others' decision to go back to China, moving back to China would not be an option for me. As I said before, making a decision involves a complex set of factors. My conclusion is that I don't fit well in China.

While discrimination does exist in the US, my feeling is that the glass ceiling is also partially self-imposed. Many of my Chinese friends lack confidence so much that they would not even want to accept an executive position even when it was offered to them. It's happened to many, whom I know. Their supervisors wanted to promote them to a managerial position, but they refused. Their excuse? "Well, it's easier just to finish your work and go home". "Don't have to mess with all the PR stuff". "All that stress from managing people? Not for me!" "Those white people wont listen to me...". How many times have you heard these excuses? One guy passed up a management position 4 times! 4 times that his supervisor wanted to promote him but he declined.

On the other hand, I also have a bunch of buddies who simply don't care and plow through whatever obstacle set in front of them. And all of them are now high level executives at major corporations. In fact, none of them believed the glass ceiling even before they started their career. Back in college, all of them had the attitude of "the heck with it! I set my own ceiling!" And they ended up doing just that. I would like to think that I belong to this group.

I do actually see a direct correlation between one's own attitude and their career. It's all up to you as individuals. If you believe discriminations exists, you will see it everywhere you look. If you believe in glass ceiling, you put one above you. If you don't believe it, they shatter and you move up.

vesicles said:

I am open to changes. While I respect others' decision to go back to China, moving back to China would not be an option for me. As I said before, making a decision involves a complex set of factors. My conclusion is that I don't fit well in China.

While discrimination does exist in the US, my feeling is that the glass ceiling is also partially self-imposed. Many of my Chinese friends lack confidence so much that they would not even want to accept an executive position even when it was offered to them. It's happened to many, whom I know. Their supervisors wanted to promote them to a managerial position, but they refused. Their excuse? "Well, it's easier just to finish your work and go home". "Don't have to mess with all the PR stuff". "All that stress from managing people? Not for me!" "Those white people wont listen to me...". How many times have you heard these excuses? One guy passed up a management position 4 times! 4 times that his supervisor wanted to promote him but he declined.

On the other hand, I also have a bunch of buddies who simply don't care and plow through whatever obstacle set in front of them. And all of them are now high level executives at major corporations. In fact, none of them believed the glass ceiling even before they started their career. Back in college, all of them had the attitude of "the heck with it! I set my own ceiling!" And they ended up doing just that. I would like to think that I belong to this group.

I do actually see a direct correlation between one's own attitude and their career. It's all up to you as individuals. If you believe discriminations exists, you will see it everywhere you look. If you believe in glass ceiling, you put one above you. If you don't believe it, they shatter and you move up.

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Yes, yes. Anyone with the will and effort can fight hard and break past his obstacles, but I prefer to not have unfair obstacles placed before me so that for the same effort, I can go further than I could if I had to waste my time smashing glass ceilings. Also, it's not about whether I can break the challenges that society gives me; it's that I refuse to serve a society that insults me by putting those obstacles before me and not their mainstream white citizens.

That's it for the tangible reasons. My biggest reason for moving back to China when my resume and experience are built up enough is spiritual; I feel that it is my duty as a man to honor my family, my blood, and my kin. I grew up in the US since age 2 and I have no doubt I will experience culture shock as I enter China's work force but I am determined and ready; even if I find it horribly irritating compared to living comfortably in a large house in Texas enjoying its resources, I will not let it deter me from this destiny. And lastly, I will absolutely not stand there and watch my children get white-washed into self-hating Asians pitifully trying to convince others that they are American; even the remote chance of it is a nauseating thought. They must grow up in China. (I have none yet so this is far future planning LOL.)

manqiangrexue said:

Yes, yes. Anyone with the will and effort can fight hard and break past his obstacles, but I prefer to not have unfair obstacles placed before me so that for the same effort, I can go further than I could if I had to waste my time smashing glass ceilings. Also, it's not about whether I can break the challenges that society gives me; it's that I refuse to serve a society that insults me by putting those obstacles before me and not their mainstream white citizens.

That's it for the tangible reasons. My biggest reason for moving back to China when my resume and experience are built up enough is spiritual; I feel that it is my duty as a man to honor my family, my blood, and my kin. I grew up in the US since age 2 and I have no doubt I will experience culture shock as I enter China's work force but I am determined and ready; even if I find it horribly irritating compared to living comfortably in a large house in Texas enjoying its resources, I will not let it deter me from this destiny. And lastly, I will absolutely not stand there and watch my children get white-washed into self-hating Asians pitifully trying to convince others that they are American; even the remote chance of it is a nauseating thought. They must grow up in China. (I have none yet so this is far future planning LOL.)

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Laudable aspirations. I'm in a similar boat and will very much prefer working for my own people. Fortunately for us, the Mainland has a preference for foreign degrees and work experience so it's not an uphill battle to enter the Chinese workforce. The language barrier will be irritating but at least maths is a universal language. Vernacular-wise, we'll just have to tough it out.

manqiangrexue said:

Yes, yes. Anyone with the will and effort can fight hard and break past his obstacles, but I prefer to not have unfair obstacles placed before me so that for the same effort, I can go further than I could if I had to waste my time smashing glass ceilings. Also, it's not about whether I can break the challenges that society gives me; it's that I refuse to serve a society that insults me by putting those obstacles before me and not their mainstream white citizens.

That's it for the tangible reasons. My biggest reason for moving back to China when my resume and experience are built up enough is spiritual; I feel that it is my duty as a man to honor my family, my blood, and my kin. I grew up in the US since age 2 and I have no doubt I will experience culture shock as I enter China's work force but I am determined and ready; even if I find it horribly irritating compared to living comfortably in a large house in Texas enjoying its resources, I will not let it deter me from this destiny. And lastly, I will absolutely not stand there and watch my children get white-washed into self-hating Asians pitifully trying to convince others that they are American; even the remote chance of it is a nauseating thought. They must grow up in China. (I have none yet so this is far future planning LOL.)

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jobjed said:

Laudable aspirations. I'm in a similar boat and will very much prefer working for my own people. Fortunately for us, the Mainland has a preference for foreign degrees and work experience so it's not an uphill battle to enter the Chinese workforce. The language barrier will be irritating but at least maths is a universal language. Vernacular-wise, we'll just have to tough it out.

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Laudable aspirations indeed. And I applaud your dedication!

However, keep in mind that, to those native Chinese with native degrees, you are different. Even those who get their BS in China, advanced degrees abroad then go back, are considered outsiders by those natives. You guys would be outside outsiders. Many of my friends found out about that the hard way back in the 2000's when many overseas Chinese went back. The so called "sea turtle era". And then it becomes "seaweed era" if you know what I mean...

It may be easier for you to get a job in China at first. But when time comes for a potential promotion, they (the senior management) will always promote their own. I've talked with enough Chinese scholars to get some clue of what's going go. Part of it is jealousy and another part is the ability for them to expand their influence. Outsiders don't have any connection/network and can't help them further expand their influence. So in other words, you have no use for them. Plus, they don't know when you change your mind and want to go home again (no matter how much you want to convince them otherwise, they won't believe you). If they invest so much of their political currency in you, they expect payback. What if you suddenly decide to go back home? they've wasted their precious political capital... It's a lot safer for them to invest in one of their own.

In a way, you face another kind of glass ceiling. Just wait and see. I'm not saying it's impossible. Just another obstacle in front of you. No matter what you do, put all your heart and passion in it and you will succeed. Best of luck!