News on China's scientific and technological development.

[Blackstone]

That's your hypothesis. However, as Vesicles demonstrated, the evidence points otherwise.

In fact, the most common scenario these days is that successful people stay in China to work, while sending their wife and kids abroad to take advantage of the environment and education.

What evidence? Testimonial of a few sources isn't sufficient to make sweeping statements like your second paragraph. I don't discount the possibility it may be true, but I'm not sure there's sufficient study to justify it. Can you site some research papers on the topic?

 

[manqiangrexue]

And what does that have to do with retaining talent? Why do you feel that this would even be appropriate in a professional setting?

LOL I can't believe you're taking him seriously and actually asking these questions. His points are only rooted in his absolute ignorance. People in China complain about the government all the time, not unlike the US. They go on restricted sites all the time using ways to flip over the firewall, not because they hate the government, but simply because they want to use some interesting site. I've never ever felt myself restricted in my actions while in China; I feel completely free there while in the US, I know I need to watch everything because people sue for anything here, most of which would be laughable in China. Should you tell him that? He won't believe you. He'll ask for evidence that people DON'T get executed LOL. When someone says something he likes, he says, "Finally, we can hear some refreshing rational reasoning!" When they say something he doesn't wanna hear, he goes, "That's just anecdotal! I need evidence! Show me all the peer-reviewed scientific publications written on what Chinese people dislike about America from 1912 to now!" LOL Do you think anyone thinks it'll be appropriate to say that in a professional setting? Not a soul; he just wants to talk trash (which he would never do in person at an actual job interview because he'd be shown the door before he finished his first sentence). He's way too old to educate so it's just best to play with him when you want to, and leave him be when you want to be serious. Play, like this, and he will go back into his shell and ignore you.

Hey Stony, should we also warn incoming talent that in the US, that they should be prepared for a good tall dose of racism, police brutality, and false democracy? How about an openly racist, sexist president who would rather streak through Central Park in the winter than release his taxes, and gets his daughter and son-in-law offices in the white house? One that colludes with Russia and lost the majority vote? We have Conway and Spicer holding a circus everyday trying to defend the president's demonstrably false statements. In the US, if you wanna open a business, you better bring a truck for the paperwork and regulations you need to sign. If your kid is Asian, his grades must be much higher than if he were black in order to get into the same college and that's publicly noted in the formula they use to calculate each applicant's acceptance score. If you take an extra 5 seconds to understand what a cop told you to do because English isn't your native language, prepare to be pummeled for non-compliance. If during the pummeling, you accidentally touch his shoe with your hand, he'll call for back-up and 9 more will show up to help him as he's on top of you and charge you with resisting arrest and assaulting a police officer. Don't get sick? Who cares? Mandatory health care package. 19 years old? You can go to war and get shot at in Afghanistan but you can't drink alcohol. Wanna catch fish in the waters of your country which you paid to maintain with your taxes? You need a town/county, AND state licence. You don't plan on keeping any? Don't care! You don't have the right to drop a hook with worm on it in public waters unless you pay! You can protest all you want but either it doesn't do anything and all you accomplish is act like a dumb animal for 1 day or it starts to take effect at which point the water cannons will be called out like in Standing Rock. You are free to read about the Bowling Green Massacre. If you had to give them the full picture like this, suddenly, it starts to feel like it's probably better not to talk about politics at all, eh?

 

[vesicles]

None of that refutes my points, because what I said are true.

Just because all you have said are true, it does not mean that these aspects would be the only ones they need to consider when they make a decision. Everyone has their own priorities. It does not make them any less smarter than us even when they choose something seemingly worse...

As I mentioned earlier, I trust my colleagues and associates have the mental capacity to make their own judgement. Let's face it. I would not want to work with them if, at this point in their lives, they still need me to remind them the obvious. They have spent most of their lives in China and are familiar with all the social, political, environmental pros and cons in the country. They don't need me, someone who can barely read Chinese, to remind them.

The only thing that I can do as their boss is to present to them how working with me can potentially advance their career. At the same time, they also have plenty information on how their career could be potentially advanced if/when they move back to China. I will leave the compare and contrast to them. I trust them to have the mental capacity to weigh their options. I feel that this is the kind of respect and trust that they deserve.

Also, my experience is that never bring up comparisons between "my place" and "your place", etc... No matter how you say it, it will sound condescending and will offend people in more ways than you can count... This is because, whenever such comparison comes up, the underlying message is always "I don't think you are smart enough to understand what kind of third-world mess you had been in..." I don't see how anyone would not be offended by that...

 

[Hendrik_2000]

Comprehensive national environments greatly affect attracting and retaining talent. It's not just how much more money governments spend on R&D. Braindrain from developing countries to the developed countries will continue until the former make themselves more attractive for local talent to stay and foreign talent to go.

What brain drain are you talking about These days more and more decide to return because glass ceiling,slow economic growth,discrimination and more opportunity at home


According to statistics released on the ministry's website, a total of 523,700 Chinese students went overseas to study in 2015, marking a 14 percent year-on-year rise. Meanwhile, 409,100 students returned from overseas study last year, up 12 percent on 2014.

Another notable trend, the ministry said, is that the ratio of those going abroad and those coming back has narrowed from 3.15 students going overseas in 2006 for every one that returned, to 1.28 for each returnee in 2015.

Booming economy, improved job prospects mean growing number envision better future

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A student attends the 2015 China Education Expo in Beijing, Oct 25, 2015. [Photo by Wang Zhuangfei/China Daily]



Both the number of Chinese students heading overseas to study and the number of those returning to China after finishing their studies abroad have increased in comparison with the year before, the Ministry of Education said on Tuesday.

According to statistics released on the ministry's website, a total of 523,700 Chinese students went overseas to study in 2015, marking a 14 percent year-on-year rise. Meanwhile, 409,100 students returned from overseas study last year, up 12 percent on 2014.

Another notable trend, the ministry said, is that the ratio of those going abroad and those coming back has narrowed from 3.15 students going overseas in 2006 for every one that returned, to 1.28 for each returnee in 2015.

Chen Zhiwen, editor-in-chief of EOL, China's largest online education portal, said the trend started to become obvious a few years ago, when the Chinese economy took off and the economic gap between China and other developed countries began to shrink.

Decades ago, very few Chinese people came back after finishing their studies overseas because they saw developed countries as "heaven", he said.

"But with the booming Chinese economy, domestic conditions have improved and there is a stronger need for talent. Not to mention the Chinese government has brought in a series of preferential policies to attract people back," Chen said. "In addition, a rapidly developing economy and a lot of emerging industries usually create more jobs and other opportunities and this is also a factor that adds to students' willingness to come back."

Zheng Tianying, CEO of the University and College Admissions System, a company that provides services to overseas students hoping to attend a Chinese college or university, said Chinese students' perspective about overseas study has also been changing.

"Studying abroad, which used to be a rare, life-changing opportunity for very few Chinese students and their families, has become a common practice that is enjoyed by many students from China in recent years," Zheng said. "More students are just heading overseas for a while to experience it or to broaden their vision and then they are coming back."

Between 1978 and 2015, more than 4 million Chinese people went overseas to study. Of those, 2.22 million have returned, the ministry said.

 

[manqiangrexue]

What brain drain are you talking about These days more and more decide to return because glass ceiling,slow economic growth,discrimination and more opportunity at home


According to statistics released on the ministry's website, a total of 523,700 Chinese students went overseas to study in 2015, marking a 14 percent year-on-year rise. Meanwhile, 409,100 students returned from overseas study last year, up 12 percent on 2014.

Another notable trend, the ministry said, is that the ratio of those going abroad and those coming back has narrowed from 3.15 students going overseas in 2006 for every one that returned, to 1.28 for each returnee in 2015.

Booming economy, improved job prospects mean growing number envision better future

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

A student attends the 2015 China Education Expo in Beijing, Oct 25, 2015. [Photo by Wang Zhuangfei/China Daily]



Both the number of Chinese students heading overseas to study and the number of those returning to China after finishing their studies abroad have increased in comparison with the year before, the Ministry of Education said on Tuesday.

According to statistics released on the ministry's website, a total of 523,700 Chinese students went overseas to study in 2015, marking a 14 percent year-on-year rise. Meanwhile, 409,100 students returned from overseas study last year, up 12 percent on 2014.

Another notable trend, the ministry said, is that the ratio of those going abroad and those coming back has narrowed from 3.15 students going overseas in 2006 for every one that returned, to 1.28 for each returnee in 2015.

Chen Zhiwen, editor-in-chief of EOL, China's largest online education portal, said the trend started to become obvious a few years ago, when the Chinese economy took off and the economic gap between China and other developed countries began to shrink.

Decades ago, very few Chinese people came back after finishing their studies overseas because they saw developed countries as "heaven", he said.

"But with the booming Chinese economy, domestic conditions have improved and there is a stronger need for talent. Not to mention the Chinese government has brought in a series of preferential policies to attract people back," Chen said. "In addition, a rapidly developing economy and a lot of emerging industries usually create more jobs and other opportunities and this is also a factor that adds to students' willingness to come back."

Zheng Tianying, CEO of the University and College Admissions System, a company that provides services to overseas students hoping to attend a Chinese college or university, said Chinese students' perspective about overseas study has also been changing.

"Studying abroad, which used to be a rare, life-changing opportunity for very few Chinese students and their families, has become a common practice that is enjoyed by many students from China in recent years," Zheng said. "More students are just heading overseas for a while to experience it or to broaden their vision and then they are coming back."

Between 1978 and 2015, more than 4 million Chinese people went overseas to study. Of those, 2.22 million have returned, the ministry said.

​

Blackstone: "Can't be true. Must... find... counter..."

 

[solarz]

What evidence? Testimonial of a few sources isn't sufficient to make sweeping statements like your second paragraph. I don't discount the possibility it may be true, but I'm not sure there's sufficient study to justify it. Can you site some research papers on the topic?

If you think my second paragraph is a sweeping statement, then you obviously don't know many successful Chinese people. It's a phenomenon that doesn't need any more evidence than your own eyes.

 

[Blackstone]

Just because all you have said are true, it does not mean that these aspects would be the only ones they need to consider when they make a decision. Everyone has their own priorities. It does not make them any less smarter than us even when they choose something seemingly worse...

As I mentioned earlier, I trust my colleagues and associates have the mental capacity to make their own judgement. Let's face it. I would not want to work with them if, at this point in their lives, they still need me to remind them the obvious. They have spent most of their lives in China and are familiar with all the social, political, environmental pros and cons in the country. They don't need me, someone who can barely read Chinese, to remind them.

The only thing that I can do as their boss is to present to them how working with me can potentially advance their career. At the same time, they also have plenty information on how their career could be potentially advanced if/when they move back to China. I will leave the compare and contrast to them. I trust them to have the mental capacity to weigh their options. I feel that this is the kind of respect and trust that they deserve.

Also, my experience is that never bring up comparisons between "my place" and "your place", etc... No matter how you say it, it will sound condescending and will offend people in more ways than you can count... This is because, whenever such comparison comes up, the underlying message is always "I don't think you are smart enough to understand what kind of third-world mess you had been in..." I don't see how anyone would not be offended by that...

Well said, Vesicles and you convinced me on your take of attracting and retaining talent topic. On cleaner rivers you spoke of earlier in our discussion, here's an article from Xinghua two days ago showing improvements in their water, but still falling far short of people's expectations.

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BEIJING, March 20 (Xinhua) -- China's water quality improved in 2016, but still fell far short of people's expectations, an environment official said Monday.


Last year, 67.8 percent of monitored surface water areas were ranked from Grade I to Grade III, indicating relatively good quality, Zhang Bo, head of water environment division under the Ministry of Environmental Protection, said at a monthly press conference.

The share was slightly higher than 66 percent for 2015, and exceeded a target of 66.5 percent for 2016, according to Zhang.

Only 8.6 percent of monitored areas received the lowest rating of Grade V for very poor quality, lower than 9.7 percent for 2015.

"Although water quality improved around the country, but it still fell far short of expectations," Zhang said.

The ministry analyzes water quality monthly and sends warning letters to areas where quality worsens.

If water quality in an area deteriorates in a quarter, the ministry will take various kinds of action, including public notifications and direct action against affected officials, Zhang said.

Since April 2015, the country has implemented an Action Plan for Water Pollution Prevention and Control to reduce pollutants, improve drinking water quality and promote water conservation.

More than 70 percent of the water in the seven major river valleys, including the Yangtze and Yellow rivers, should have relatively good quality of between Grade I and Grade III by 2020, according to the plan.

 

[solarz]

It should also be noted that as China becomes more prosperous, its elites have also become more ambitious. 20 years ago, attaining middle class status in a western country held a lot more attraction than it does today. Many of the elite Chinese talents that western countries are trying to retain can aspire to leadership roles back in China, whereas they would hit a glass ceiling in the west.

The biggest advantages that China retains over its own talent are language, culture, and connections.

 

[Blackstone]

What brain drain are you talking about These days more and more decide to return because glass ceiling,slow economic growth,discrimination and more opportunity at home


According to statistics released on the ministry's website, a total of 523,700 Chinese students went overseas to study in 2015, marking a 14 percent year-on-year rise. Meanwhile, 409,100 students returned from overseas study last year, up 12 percent on 2014.

Another notable trend, the ministry said, is that the ratio of those going abroad and those coming back has narrowed from 3.15 students going overseas in 2006 for every one that returned, to 1.28 for each returnee in 2015.

Booming economy, improved job prospects mean growing number envision better future

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

A student attends the 2015 China Education Expo in Beijing, Oct 25, 2015. [Photo by Wang Zhuangfei/China Daily]



Both the number of Chinese students heading overseas to study and the number of those returning to China after finishing their studies abroad have increased in comparison with the year before, the Ministry of Education said on Tuesday.

According to statistics released on the ministry's website, a total of 523,700 Chinese students went overseas to study in 2015, marking a 14 percent year-on-year rise. Meanwhile, 409,100 students returned from overseas study last year, up 12 percent on 2014.

Another notable trend, the ministry said, is that the ratio of those going abroad and those coming back has narrowed from 3.15 students going overseas in 2006 for every one that returned, to 1.28 for each returnee in 2015.

Chen Zhiwen, editor-in-chief of EOL, China's largest online education portal, said the trend started to become obvious a few years ago, when the Chinese economy took off and the economic gap between China and other developed countries began to shrink.

Decades ago, very few Chinese people came back after finishing their studies overseas because they saw developed countries as "heaven", he said.

"But with the booming Chinese economy, domestic conditions have improved and there is a stronger need for talent. Not to mention the Chinese government has brought in a series of preferential policies to attract people back," Chen said. "In addition, a rapidly developing economy and a lot of emerging industries usually create more jobs and other opportunities and this is also a factor that adds to students' willingness to come back."

Zheng Tianying, CEO of the University and College Admissions System, a company that provides services to overseas students hoping to attend a Chinese college or university, said Chinese students' perspective about overseas study has also been changing.

"Studying abroad, which used to be a rare, life-changing opportunity for very few Chinese students and their families, has become a common practice that is enjoyed by many students from China in recent years," Zheng said. "More students are just heading overseas for a while to experience it or to broaden their vision and then they are coming back."

Between 1978 and 2015, more than 4 million Chinese people went overseas to study. Of those, 2.22 million have returned, the ministry said.

​

Good data, Hendrik. A series of data from relatively unbiased sources can establish a very strong case and I hope to see more of them, especially from different media outlets. It's also important to take the other side's strongest arguments seriously and see how your data-conclusion stack up. Keep up the good work. PS- I read that article last year, and there are new ones this year too. Need more though.

 

[Blackstone]

If you think my second paragraph is a sweeping statement, then you obviously don't know many successful Chinese people. It's a phenomenon that doesn't need any more evidence than your own eyes.

Alright, let's do an exercise where I ask you to put on your "unbiased" hat and fairly consider the bold part in your second paragraph to see if you think reasonable people could agree it's a sweeping statement. I'll accept your considered opinion, if you agree to be fair and unbiased.

In fact, the most common scenario these days is that successful people stay in China to work, while sending their wife and kids abroad to take advantage of the environment and education.

My concerns are:

• How many total "common" cases are there in a land of 400+ million middle-class citizens?
• How do you know the scenario you described is the "most common?"
  
• Of the total cases (yet to be named), how many have you personally seen?
• Do you have enough data to make that claim?