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Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
1.) great for China, 2.) bad for the US, and 3.) painful but good for Russia.
Basically this.

US never wanted a war in Ukraine, they wanted to help them build up until they can overrun the Donbass, and then use NATO membership as a way to threaten Crimea, without ever going hot with Russia itself. Putin preempted Biden's moves.

"the Ukraine gambit" is cope from real or fake US netizens. The whole affair has been a shit show economically for EU and by extension US since the start. US can and has made it less of a shit show for mainland America by robbing EU blind, but a bloc leader cannibalising their own constituent vassal countries is never a sign of strength.

But the poor pacing of Russian forces, their lack of basic capabilities vis a vis the PLA or even Iran... Putin likely believed he could completely control the tempo of engagement. That is wrong, Ukraine and NATO also gets a vote. However, whatever the military situation, the economic situation has already achieved China's rough objectives.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Actually many countries did not rush to ban Huawei, even slave states like the UK.
The key players all begrudgingly did. Like I said, they will complain, but they had to do it.
Then Germany showed the middle finger to the US when the latter demanded to shut down NS-2.
It was a stupid demand; it will damage the EU so badly that they would not have the strength to help the US against China. America would benefit from an economically strong EU feeding massive resources into tech innovation and then getting that tech by some "democracies stand against China" bullshit diplomacy.
In the case of ASML, the US had colossal leverage - the EUV light source is produced in the US by an American company bought by ASML, and the only alternative is Japanese Gigaphoton, so essentially no alternatives if they piss off the US.
Right, so they had the Dutch in their pockets too.
Plus France was floating the idea of a European army that would obviously weaken the US grip.
Would it? I thought the US wanted the Euros to put more finances into their militaries so the US could devote less to the Russian front and more to the Chinese front. Trump complained day and night that Euros are not pulling their fair share of NATO. But however much the US wanted the EU to focus more militarily on Russia (which is achieved now), they did not want to trade a powerful European tech partnership for it since the tech war matters infinitely more than the Ukraine or Russia even.
Now European economies are entering a massive recession, their industries are fleeing (plenty go to the US, btw),
Plenty to the US, plenty to China too, perhaps even more for the latter. A strong Europe could focus on buttressing Western tech supremacy, now they are scattered just trying to survive.
and they are forced to import more American energy.
Was never important in the first place.
It's game over now.
What game? The most important game is the tech war and this is helping China's hand by chopping down American reinforcements.
The scenario did not go the perfect way but the outcomes are still acceptable.
To China. To the US, it should be unacceptable to lose the bulk of European power in the tech war which it stands no chance of winning alone. But because American politicians are a bunch of bickering headless chickens constantly trying to fight each other, nobody knows what's actually acceptable to them at any moment.
 
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coolgod

Brigadier
Registered Member
European leaders were naive cucks, they didn't listen to USA, China, or Russia and deserved everything that happens to their country.
When Trump talked about Germany's gas security, they didn't understand it was a veiled threat from the US oil & gas industry. When Xi repeatedly brings up 百年未有之大变局 (Changes unseen in a century) and strategic autonomy, they didn't understand this meant WWIII was around the corner and the US was going to drag them in. Obviously, they never took Putin's warnings about Donbass seriously and now look what happened.

There is a reason why US, China and Russia are the big three in the UN Security Council, ignore them at your own perils.
 

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member
It was a stupid demand; it will damage the EU so badly that they would not have the strength to help the US against China. America would benefit from an economically strong EU feeding massive resources into tech innovation and then getting that tech by some "democracies stand against China" bullshit diplomacy.
The US wanted to sell its energy resources and make Europe more dependent on the US in that area instead of letting Russia get more revenue. NS-2 also increased dependency of Europe on Russia which goes contrary to the US containment strategies.
Would it? I thought the US wanted the Euros to put more finances into their militaries so the US could devote less to the Russian front and more to the Chinese front. Trump complained day and night that Euros are not pulling their fair share of NATO.
Trump said many things - e.g. he also wanted to pull troops from SK. His views often go contrary to the establishment narratives, while Biden already began establishing yet
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, etc. You are mistaken if you think that the US wants "allies" that can be on equal footing with them. If your logic was correct, the US would not destroy Japan back in 80-90s - pragmatically they would certainly benefit from a strong Japanese economy, especially in the Pacific region with three communist countries nearby (USSR, China, Vietnam). Plus the US has so much influence on LDP and Japanese military is basically just an extension of the American one, so there were no control issues. Yet, events like Plaza Accord, followed by the semiconductor agreement and purges of Toshiba happened. Because the US prefers countries that are 'just' strong enough.
Plenty to the US, plenty to China. A strong Europe could focus on buffering Western tech supremacy, now they are scattered just trying to survive.
There aren't much innovations from Europe in the key modern areas of research, most of them are made in the US and China. Besides, do you think European scientists will just sit and starve if the situation becomes even more dire, lol? They would move to the US - not all, obviously, but many. Boosting your own R&D capabilities is always better than boosting some other country hoping they would help you.
Was never important in the first place.
Energy dependency is always important. No energy = no industry, no R&D. If Europe was not dependent on Russian energy, then most of the woes that we mentioned would not materialize. Same goes for any other country. That's why China diversifies its sources so much.
What game?
Game of trying to play independent Europe.
 
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Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
@xypher I don't think the game of playing an independent Europe ever existed to begin with.

Instead, EU will now go through the wringer, and the ones who don't want to stay with the US will leave while the ones that stay will stay. However, they'll not stay for free, US needs to pay them at least some constant maintenence cost. Europeans are spoiled and feel entitled to better life quality than Americans. Telling them to go to 3rd world life quality would incur mass unrest.

China can make bilateral deals with each former EU nation by themselves. That would open better possibilities compared to being forced to approach them as a collective of clowns united under Ursula Von der Leyen
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
The US wanted to sell its energy resources and make Europe more dependent on the US in that area instead of letting Russia get more revenue. NS-2 also increased dependency of Europe on Russia which goes contrary to the US containment strategies.
NS2 was critical to European energy. The US never made an American alternative. Today, no matter how much Europe needs energy, the US cannot deliver nearly enough. In other words, NS2 made the US uncomfortable but it was a necessity so trying to remove it, as we see today, was stupid.
Trump said many things - e.g. he also wanted to pull troops from SK. His views often go contrary to the establishment narratives, while Biden already began establishing yet
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, etc. You are mistaken if you think that the US wants "allies" that can be on equal footing with them. If your logic was correct, the US would not destroy Japan back in 80-90s - pragmatically they would certainly benefit from a strong Japanese economy, especially in the Pacific region with three communist countries nearby (USSR, China, Vietnam). Plus the US has so much influence on LDP and Japanese military is basically just an extension of the American one. Yet, events like Plaza Accord, followed by the semiconductor agreement and purges of Toshiba happenned.
A European army would be far away from putting the EU on equal footing with the US. No American president wanted the EU to spend less militariliy. A European army would be another chess piece that supports America desires and Western power.
There aren't much innovations from Europe in the key modern areas of research, most of them are made in the US and China.
I don't think so. In terms of 5G, the US is a cheerleader compared to European and Chinese leaders.
Besides, do you think European scientists would just sit and starve if that problem arises, lol? They would move to the US - not all, obviously, but many.
They could have all been sitting in Europe using European resources to invent things that help America. Now they are dealing with reduced pay and reduced activity in Europe, some of them can be hired by China instead, and those who go to the US will need American resources to fund them at a time when America is in recession and heading for a worse recession.
Energy dependency is always important. No energy = no industry, no R&D. If Europe was not dependent on Russian energy, then most of the woes that we mentioned would not materialize. Same goes for any other country. That's why China diversifies its sources so much.
Yeah, but this is the wrong time to challenge Russian energy control over Europe because the Americans will have practically cemented their defeat in the tech war to upend European energy at this time.
Game of trying to play independent Europe.
That's a real stupid game at a real stupid time for the US considering what's happening in China. America already controlled Europe to a satisfactory extent; increasing the grip should be a passtime for when there's nothing else to do. Instead, they chose to increase their grip on a tool they already had while squeezing it into a useless piece of shit in a time they needed the tool the most.
 

xypher

Senior Member
Registered Member
NS2 was critical to European energy. The US never made an American alternative. Today, no matter how much Europe needs energy, the US cannot deliver nearly enough. In other words, NS2 made the US uncomfortable but it was a necessity so trying to remove it, as we see today, was stupid.
American alternative was always the LNG. They wanted countries like Germany to build more terminals and expand the market. LNG was also one of the major points in the China-US trade deal.
A European army would be far away from putting the EU on equal footing with the US. No American president wanted the EU to spend less militariliy. A European army would be another chess piece that supports America desires and Western power.
Economically Europe was already close to the US in terms of size, especially before Brexit. So becoming self-sufficient in terms of military would make Europe even more independent - dissent against the US military bases in Germany and other countries would grow stronger, as keeping them would make zero sense if Europe can defend itself. All of this would make Europe a legitimate pole of power - don't forget that the European countries were hegemons and imperialists long before the US, they only seem content with their place in the pecking order. Even France alone back in CW era was trying to establish a network of countries separate from the US, that's how the French neocolonialism was born.
I don't think so. In terms of 5G, the US is a cheerleader compared to European and Chinese leaders.
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, the US is actually ahead of Europe in terms of 5G IP. And in areas like AI, semiconductor, quantum communication\computing, etc. the gap is even bigger. Those areas are dominated by the US and China.
They could have all been sitting in Europe using European resources to invent things that help America. Now they are dealing with reduced pay and reduced activity in Europe, some of them can be hired by China instead, and those who go to the US will need American resources to fund them instead.
Resources aren't a problem if you are getting more research and scientists, especially now when USD is still the hegemonic currency.
Yeah, but this is the wrong time to challenge Russian energy control over Europe because the Americans will have practically cemented their defeat in the tech war to upend European energy at this time.
That's a real stupid game at a real stupid time for the US considering what's happening in China. America already controlled Europe to a satisfactory extent; increasing the grip should be a passtime for when there's nothing else to do. Instead, they chose to increase their grip on a tool they already had while squeezing it into a useless piece of shit in a time they needed the tool the most.
The US clearly thinks that Europe is not as important in the tech war across the key research areas and prefers to increase control instead. Some of the more brilliant scientists/teams can always be poached. Now that the European economy is going to tatters, brain draining is going to be even easier. Whether it is true or not, we will see in the future. If the US miscalculated, then it is great for China and Global South.

@Biscuits I guess we will see that after Scholz and Macron visit Beijing. Whether their balls got completely squeezed or they can still be worked with.
 

baykalov

Senior Member
Registered Member
An article in a Russian media, written more than two years ago.

Automatic translation:

Russian underwater gas pipelines will be destroyed

31.03.2020

by Yuri Soshin

The beginning of 2020 showed a decline in European consumers' demand for U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG).

This clearly reflects an overall downward trend in global energy consumption as a consequence of macroeconomic crisis phenomena.

At the moment, Russian natural gas, including in the form of LNG, remains cheaper than that supplied from the United States and has a clear competitive advantage.

In order to maintain its already achieved position on the European gas market and to oust Russia from it, the USA is taking a whole range of measures, including those that do not quite comply with the norms of international law.

The USA currently controls the overland transit space for energy carriers through the service states under its control: Poland and Ukraine. At least one of the reasons for organizing the 2014 coup d'etat in Ukraine is that the U.S. gained control over part of the onshore energy pipeline lines running from Russia to Europe.

The construction of the Nord Stream 1, Nord Stream 2 and Turkish Stream submarine pipelines was designed to give Russia and Old Europe independence in natural gas supplies. One of the main motivating factors for the construction of these lines was the reliability and durability of supplies bypassing U.S. control zones.

Security, predictability and stability are among the key factors for European consumers when negotiating long-term energy supply contracts. Onshore pipelines coming from Russia, while under the de facto control of the United States, cannot match these qualities.

Supplies of Russian gas through the territory of the US satellites, actually deprived of state independence, may be destabilized at any time up to complete cessation.

This can happen both as a result of force majeure circumstances, and purposefully, in order to create a competitive advantage of the American liquefied gas supplied to Europe. The disruption and blockage of gas supplies can also be done for purely political purposes.

Lack of proper long-term predictability refers to the Turkish Stream pipeline, laid under the Black Sea and opened in January 2020, because at the exit point it passes through Greece and Bulgaria, the degree of servility of which in relation to the United States is extremely high.

The reliability of supplies via Turkish Stream is very problematic, since it depends on the possible destabilization - up to the destruction of the state as such - of the socio-political situation in Turkey.

The presence of gas pipelines beyond the control of the USA is the survival factor of both Russia and the European Union as an independent geopolitical force.

Taking control or defunctionalization of the submarine pipelines is a factor of growing dependence of Europe upon the US and turning the latter into a global - control over supplies from the Middle East is technically feasible for America - monopolist at the energy resources market.

U.S. hydrocarbon exports in recent decades are largely based on shale technology, effective only when gas and oil prices are relatively high. In recent years, very large funds have been invested in shale oil and gas production in the U.S., including small private investors.

Recently, due to the global epidemic of the coronovirus, the prices for hydrocarbons have dropped sharply. This has put into question not just the profitability of the already established shale industry, but its existence as such. For the U.S., this is a problem of maintaining economic and social stability.

The struggle for control of the European energy space was fought in a relatively civilized way until the end of 2019.

The introduction on December 21, 2019 of a package of sanctions against the "Nord Stream-2" under construction due to "incompatibility with the economic interests of the United States" showed that the legal and legislative norms in the world energy trade are no longer applicable, being replaced by open arbitrariness.

Sanctions restrictions and other relatively "civilized methods" can be replaced by more radical "geopolitical technologies". The U.S. can obtain a monopoly status in the European energy market through the physical destruction of underwater pipelines coming from Russia.

Terror as a means of implementing large-scale political and economic strategies is a reality today. Considering the crisis developments in the world and the general trends, such an "unthinkable" scenario may be considered almost inevitable.

There has already been a precedent of an underwater pipeline being destroyed, and U.S. intelligence agencies were openly involved in it.

In 1983, the administration of U.S. President Reagan sought to overthrow the pro-Soviet Sandinista government in Nicaragua. The CIA, on the initiative of Division Chief Duane Claridge, created a professional subversive group disguised as a separate formation of the "contras" movement - the anti-Sandinista armed resistance.

On October 14, 1983, combat swimmers from this group blew up an underwater pipeline in the port of Puerto Sandino. Subsequent investigations proved direct U.S. involvement in this and other (the October 11, 1983 surface attack involving the destruction of five oil storage tanks in the port of Corinto) terrorist acts, which was acknowledged by the United Nations.

Putting an underwater pipeline out of service for a long period of time is not difficult for a technologically advanced state. Accurate positioning of the pipeline's line of passage is fairly easy with complex analysis. Magnetometer and other underwater instrumentation can be further refined on site from ships.

Then an autonomous or teleoperated underwater vehicle is created that is capable of moving along the pipe and placing explosive devices on it at a certain interval. When mines are detonated synchronously, a section of the pipeline is perforated and fails.

Repairing or replacing damaged sections of the pipeline - especially if the attack is carried out simultaneously on sufficiently separated sections - will be extremely difficult due to the need to send special ships with the necessary equipment to the accident sites.

The duration of repair work in case of multiple, dispersed damages may be long beyond the possibility of curing the gas supply interruption by ground reserves.

In case of repeated attacks or gradual detonation of predetermined mines in different sections, the pipeline operation will stop for a long time or will stop completely.

Financial costs of eliminating the consequences of terrorist attacks may make pipeline gas supplies unprofitable in comparison with LNG.

Terrorist defunctionalization of submarine pipelines is also available to countries with moderate scientific and technical potential, such as Poland and Ukraine.

Underwater terror" is also possible from organizations and groups that are independent or relatively independent of any state, such as Ukrainian nationalist organizations, radical Islamists, etc. Terrorist impact in this case can be carried out by rather primitive methods.

The Baltic Sea is shallow and determining places of pipe laying presents no problems even with a minimal, relatively inexpensive and legally available set of equipment. The terrorist attack itself may be carried out by lowering an explosive charge on a cable.

Countering underwater terror, especially in the case of submersible drones, would be extremely difficult.

If at the coastal level it is still possible to organize somehow the surveillance and control of water areas in places where pipelines are laid, it is more difficult to do it as far from the shore.

As for the potential customers of anti-pipeline terror, everything cannot be reduced only to economic motivation or the desire of the U.S. for global leadership.

At present, there is a diversification of terror and its withdrawal from the control of organizations and movements affiliated with various state and quasi-state structures.

Terror may no longer have a direct orientation, the goals may be to discredit certain states, governments, administrations and political groups, or even directly the chaos and destruction of the world economic and legal system as such.

However, the following conclusions should be drawn as the main one:

1. terrorist impact on Russian submarine pipelines is almost inevitable. With a high degree of probability, the United States will be the main initiator.

2. Attacks on Russian submarine pipelines will result in a large-scale crisis of the European Union. The result of the latter, with a high degree of probability, will not be alarmist cohesion and state-society mobilization, but rather complex disorientation and disintegration.

3. The result will be the elimination of United Europe as an independent geopolitical actor, its transition under the comprehensive control of the U.S. and consolidation of the latter in the role of the world economic and political hegemon.

4. The Russian authorities need, at least at the level of analytical models, to work through the prospect of the emergence of "unthinkable" scenarios.

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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
American alternative was always the LNG. They wanted countries like Germany to build more terminals and expand the market. LNG was also one of the major points in the China-US trade deal.
And now is a critical time and a stupid time to push it, as we see in Europe.
Economically Europe was already close to the US in terms of size, especially before Brexit. So becoming self-sufficient in terms of military would make Europe even more independent - dissent against the US military bases in Germany and other countries would grow stronger, as keeping them would make zero sense if Europe can defend itself. All of this would make Europe a legitimate pole of power - don't forget that the European countries were hegemons and imperialists long before the US, they only seem content with their place in the pecking order. Even France alone back in CW era was trying to establish a network of countries separate from the US, that's how the French neocolonialism was born.
Europe isn't a thing and it isn't a pole of power because it's a plethora of countries held together by American command. They're scared little runts; they don't have it in them to be independent or to combine into a cohesive entity. 30 little countries is not a large country even if they add up to the same land mass and population because they all have their own national needs. They team up with the US much more because of cultural reasons, reasons based on racism, and because of the deep economic roots that America planted post WWII. None of these would be broken if Europe could defend itself against Russia without the US. They don't want to see Chinese people become the dominant race in the world.
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, the US is actually ahead of Europe in terms of 5G IP. And in areas like AI, semiconductor, quantum communication\computing, etc. the gap is even bigger. Those areas are dominated by the US and China.
Nope, Errikson and Nokia are rivals to Huawei while American telecom sticks 5G stickers on 4G devices. America is a cheerleader to those companies.
Resources aren't a problem if you are getting more research and scientists, especially now when USD is still the hegemonic currency.
That doesn't even make sense. Scientists consume resources and the economy is in recession. When the economy gets tight, scientists have trouble getting funding for grants; that's an undebatable fact. The "magic" of a hegemonic currency must stop recession and stagflation before it can be declared as being impervious ro resource constraints.
The US clearly thinks that Europe is not as important in the tech war across the key research areas and prefers to increase control instead.
No, I don't think that the US thought that Europe could be economically kneecapped by Russia. They think Europe is very important; they send politicians to shout for hours in Parliamentarly estabilishments in Europe to get them on board against China. America's big mouth is running constantly about democracies against China because they know they need to gang up on China to even have a chance. They have no self-confidence and Europe is probably the biggest tech partner they could have. Chinese tech breakthroughs are all in science while American tech breakthroughs are all in diplomacy.
Some of the more brilliant scientists/teams can always be poached. Now that the European economy is going to tatters, brain draining is going to be even easier.
Like I said, works both ways for China as well and they didn't need to be poached before this because they were doing what America wanted them to do in Europe.
Whether it is true or not, we will see in the future. If the US miscalculated, then it is great for China and Global South.
Sure
@Biscuits I guess we will see that after Scholz and Macron visit Beijing. Whether their balls got completely squeezed or they can still be worked with.
You can't work with democracies because they change crazy leaders too often. Work with them today, they turn on you tomorrow. Unless you want something transactional and irreversible from them, just tell them to put their heads down on their desks and take a nap until it's time to board their return flights.
 
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