PLAN Sovremenny DDG 136, 137, 138 & 139 Thread

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Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
drowingfish said:
those are the old days. what the PLAN needed Sov for is no longer the same. whether it was air defence or anti-sub, the PLAN has found better ways to fill those gaps. as for anti-ship, i think sea launched yj-12 is only good for localized skirmishes, for example against a ROC frigate that the PLA does not want to bother sending air assets after. the one capability that the sovs have now that other PLAN vessels don't is the 130mm. I imagine those guns can do some good damage to beach fortifications.
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YJ-12 is still good for 400km maybe even more. That's far more than localized skirmishes. It can snipe most ships beyond their antiship missile ranges.

Sovremenny is still intended for intense blue water battles where it can tank enemy antiship missile fire and dish its own.

Also, the cost of the refits might be much lower than people think. Virtually every part already pre exists for existing ships, there are no major mechanical and structural changes on the ships other than the VLS install, no expensive AESA sensors and so on. The ship performs somewhere between a 054A and a 052C, it definitely packs more offensive punch than a 054A and has better defensive capabilities. The EW for example, is at the 052D level, not the 054A.
 
T

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
FairAndUnbiased said:
Selling the improved Sovs, 052B (Buk and Top Plate radar equipped) and 051Cs (S-300 and Top Plate radar equipped) back to Russia would immediately and greatly improve their naval strength in both strike and air defense which is what they're lacking.
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The refitted Sovs are now using Chinese missiles, and the 052B and 051C are still using Chinese AshMs.

Maybe the ships can be modified for use with X-35 Urans instead of the YJ-83. Conceptually and classification wise, both are similar.

You may have to sell back whatever remains of China's Moskit or Sunburn missile inventory, as China literally bought what's left of the Russians' in the mid 2000s. If not the Russians will have to buy and use the CM302, aka export YJ-12 aka YJ-12E.

The flaw of this scheme is that the Russians are basing their naval strategy around the Kalibr. None of these ships are Kalibr ready or can be refitted with Kalibr. You need to find a place in the ship where you can put a VLS as deep as the U-VLS. On the improved Sovs, our supposed ex-136 and ex-137, you may perhaps take out the second AK-130 at the rear and replace that with a UKSK VLS. On the 051C, perhaps we can reduce the 48 VLS for the S-300 to 32 or 40, and turn the 8 or 16 VLS to UKSK. If the Russians have slanted firing Kalibr, so much the better for the Sovs.

The better part of these scheme is that you can release the pennant numbers, and the crews of these ships, for new 052D replacements.
 
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snake65

snake65

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Tam said:
The refitted Sovs are now using Chinese missiles, and the 052B and 051C are still using Chinese AshMs.

Maybe the ships can be modified for use with X-35 Urans instead of the YJ-83. Conceptually and classification wise, both are similar.

You may have to sell back whatever remains of China's Moskit or Sunburn missile inventory, as China literally bought what's left of the Russians' in the mid 2000s. If not the Russians will have to buy and use the CM302, aka export YJ-12 aka YJ-12E.

The flaw of this scheme is that the Russians are basing their naval strategy around the Kalibr. None of these ships are Kalibr ready or can be refitted with Kalibr. You need to find a place in the ship where you can put a VLS as deep as the U-VLS. On the improved Sovs, our supposed ex-136 and ex-137, you may perhaps take out the second AK-130 at the rear and replace that with a UKSK VLS. On the 051C, perhaps we can reduce the 48 VLS for the S-300 to 32 or 40, and turn the 8 or 16 VLS to UKSK. If the Russians have slanted firing Kalibr, so much the better for the Sovs.

The better part of these scheme is that you can release the pennant numbers, and the crews of these ships, for new 052D replacements.
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I would say 138 and 139 stand the best chance to be accepted by Russians if China wants to offer them for sale. They have Russian powertrain and radars and installing UKSK VLS in the stern shouldn't be a problem, Russians had similar plans themselves.

052B comes next, the Ukrainian turbines shouldn't be a problem and MTU diesels may be replaced by local ones. Installing UKSK may be a problem though. If Russia is desperate for ships, they may agree with replacing YJ-83 with Urans as well as upgrade SAM to VLS Shtil, although I doubt they would want to invest that much money in upgrades.

051C is the least likely due to Chinese powerplant which will be a logistical nightmare. After losing Moskva cruiser it may be tempting to replace it with a couple of 051C, but I really doubt that Russia is that desperate.
 
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sahureka

Junior Member
Registered Member
snake65 said:
I would say 138 and 139 stand the best chance to be accepted by Russians if China wants to offer them for sale. They have Russian powertrain and radars and installing UKSK VLS in the stern shouldn't be a problem, Russians had similar plans themselves.

052B comes next, the Ukrainian turbines shouldn't be a problem and MTU diesels may be replaced by local ones. Installing UKSK may be a problem though. If Russia is desperate for ships, they may agree with replacing YJ-83 with Urans as well as upgrade SAM to VLS Shtil, although I doubt they would want to invest that much money in upgrades.

051C is the least likely due to Chinese powerplant which will be a logistical nightmare. After losing Moskva cruiser it may be tempting to replace it with a couple of 051C, but I really doubt that Russia is that desperate.
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gentlemen, do you have official news or are you just guessing?
because if they are guesswork, as second-hand units the Russians at most could perhaps only accept type 075s.
 
snake65

snake65

Junior Member
VIP Professional
sahureka said:
gentlemen, do you have official news or are you just guessing?
because if they are guesswork, as second-hand units the Russians at most could perhaps only accept type 075s.
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This is not even guesswork, rather extrapolation of Russian requirement for blue water surface combatants. Not much is in the pipeline at home - one aged CGN and one DD modernized and couple of 22350 frigates nearing completion.
 
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sahureka

Junior Member
Registered Member
snake65 said:
This is not even guesswork, rather extrapolation of Russian requirement for blue water surface combatants. Not much is in the pipeline at home - one aged CGN and one DD modernized and couple of 22350 frigates nearing completion.
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remaining in the hypotheses, (excluding the further project 22350 already ordered and the possible project 22350M), given the capacity and speed of construction of the Chinese shipyards, the Russian interest should go to hulls derived from the type 052D and specifically adapted to receive weapons, systems and Russian electronics (possibly these destroyers to be completed in Russian Pacific yards) Ships that completed to be assigned solely to the Pacific Fleet.
 
M

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
sahureka said:
remaining in the hypotheses, (excluding the further project 22350 already ordered and the possible project 22350M), given the capacity and speed of construction of the Chinese shipyards, the Russian interest should go to hulls derived from the type 052D and specifically adapted to receive weapons, systems and Russian electronics (possibly these destroyers to be completed in Russian Pacific yards) Ships that completed to be assigned solely to the Pacific Fleet.
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The 052Ds probably too expensive for the Russian navy.

I mean yes they aren't that poor to not be able to buy some, but if they want to procure a greater number of them, we'll, not enough money.
 
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