PLAN Sovremenny DDG 136, 137, 138 & 139 Thread

[Tam]

They reduced both the number of MR SAMs and the illuminators. Do you see that as downgrade in medium range air defense? Or are the HQ-16 significantly superior to the SA-N-7 and can compensate the lack in numbers?

Depends how good the HQ-16 vs. the Shtil-1 is. Also the Chinese vs the Russian MR-90s. The HQ-16 features TVC while the Shtil doesn't. The HQ-16 in its land based form was ahead over the Buks in using phased array while the Buks are using an inverse cassegrain. That can be passed over to the naval side. If you put pics of the Chinese vs the Russian illuminators together, the differences become apparent like the shape of the dome.

Then you also have the firing rate of the VLS vs the arm launchers.

By the time the other two Sovremennies get their refit their illuminators can be changed to the AESAs used by the newest 054A.

In exchange the refitted Sovremennies gets vastly improved close in and electronic warfare capabilities. Compared to ships like the Kresta and the Slava, the Sovremennies are devoid of electronic warfare other than a basic decoy launcher. After the refit, they get the full Type 726 EW suite used by the 052C/D. This includes the 726-1 ESM for threat signal analysis, the 726-2 ESM for directional finding, the 726-3 for ECM jamming and the 726-4 decoy launch system that can launch a variety of chaff and possibly might have active decoys. The ships are topped with a tall ESM mast used by the 052D.

You also gain the HQ-10 that puts 24 close range missiles on board.

The radar changes from the Mineral-M radar to the Type 366 adds the ability to detect low flying objects over the horizon.

The Type 382 radar over the Fregat increases the rotational rate of the search radar from 12 rpm to 30.

The Type 364 radar is added and this is a radar that is dedicated in detecting and tracking sea skimmers. This radar is optimized against sea clutter. The Type 364 is used to coordinate the HQ-10 and the CIWS radars. It can possibly be used in combination with the the Type 382 to track airborne targets for engagement with the HQ-16. Given its 60 rpm, you can potentially combine the tracks of both radars for a much higher update rate.

The Type 364 only has its equivalent with the Russian Pozitiv radar set, which are not available with the Sovremennies until the last two ships that China ordered.

Then you have the question how well the Chinese gun fire control radars are, the Type 344 vs the MR-184 for the AK-130 and the Type 349 vs the MR-123 for the AK-630.

 

[banjex]

Pretty sure anything is better than the AK-630 given the recent Slava fiasco.

 

[Tam]

Pretty sure anything is better than the AK-630 given the recent Slava fiasco.

I don't think anything on the Moskva was working as that ship was originally intended to be scrapped, then rushed back to service. It's nowhere as battle ready as the Varyag or the Marshall Ustinov is. I doubt the radars are even working on that ship. The AK-630 is good enough for China to make copies of its own.

 

[drowingfish]

the most valuable capability the older sov class has now are the dual 130mm, really packs a punch, will come in handy if hell breaks loose around Taiwan.

 

[Tam]

the most valuable capability the older sov class has now are the dual 130mm, really packs a punch, will come in handy if hell breaks loose around Taiwan.

Nah. It's the ability to use the supersonic YJ-12 missiles. That gives them a threat range of up to 400km with that missile, which is shared with the refit Shenzhen. They will be joined with the two refit 052B, then the final pair of Sovremenny.

This exceeds the 180km of the YJ-83 and 300km of the YJ-83B, but below the strike range of the YJ-18 which is at 600 to 650km. The YJ-12 however greatly exceeds the range of the modified Moskit ME used previously and set at a range of 240km, which is double the range of the original Moskit at 120km.

The last two Sovremenny only has one AK-130 turret and these are specials made to PLAN requirements. This means the AK-130 is not really important to them if they ordered these ships with one AK-130 cut out. Instead the last two ships has the additional Pozitiv planar radar installed with two Kashtan CIWS, indicating that better close in defenses are closer to the PLAN's menu. This is inline with what we saw with the refits where there is a huge increase in close in defense capability.

The Pozitiv radar is an X-band surface search radar dedicated in detecting and tracking low flying objects like antiship missiles. Compared to the S-band, X-band is much more clutter resistant against surface clutter that antiship missiles use to hide and sneak up against a target. The Kashtan has two 30mm barrels each, the total output can be around 10,000 to 11,000 rounds per minute, with four short range missiles.

 

[Chilled_k6]

Nah. It's the ability to use the supersonic YJ-12 missiles. That gives them a threat range of up to 400km with that missile, which is shared with the refit Shenzhen. They will be joined with the two refit 052B, then the final pair of Sovremenny.

This exceeds the 180km of the YJ-83 and 300km of the YJ-83B, but below the strike range of the YJ-18 which is at 600 to 650km. The YJ-12 however greatly exceeds the range of the modified Moskit ME used previously and set at a range of 240km, which is double the range of the original Moskit at 120km.

The last two Sovremenny only has one AK-130 turret and these are specials made to PLAN requirements. This means the AK-130 is not really important to them if they ordered these ships with one AK-130 cut out. Instead the last two ships has the additional Pozitiv planar radar installed with two Kashtan CIWS, indicating that better close in defenses are closer to the PLAN's menu. This is inline with what we saw with the refits where there is a huge increase in close in defense capability.

The Pozitiv radar is an X-band surface search radar dedicated in detecting and tracking low flying objects like antiship missiles. Compared to the S-band, X-band is much more clutter resistant against surface clutter that antiship missiles use to hide and sneak up against a target. The Kashtan has two 30mm barrels each, the total output can be around 10,000 to 11,000 rounds per minute, with four short range missiles.

Curious why don't they just equip the upgraded Sovremennys with YJ-18s for the greater range? Can't they be slant launched as well? Or maybe a mix of both types of missiles?

 

[Tam]

Curious why don't they just equip the upgraded Sovremennys with YJ-18s for the greater range? Can't they be slant launched as well? Or maybe a mix of both types of missiles?

Exactly. The YJ-18s can't be slant launched.

They have to be launched in a deep VLS, like the Kalibrs.

Unfortunately, it's obvious the Russians are not upgrading their Sovs to carry Kalibrs because there is no space for such a deep VLS, unlike the Udaloys, which they are upgrading.

 

[gelgoog]

There was a prototype for a slanted Kalibr launcher but it was never put into service.
The Russians also have tried to get rid of the ships with boilers because they are a maintenance hassle.

 

[drowingfish]

Nah. It's the ability to use the supersonic YJ-12 missiles. That gives them a threat range of up to 400km with that missile, which is shared with the refit Shenzhen. They will be joined with the two refit 052B, then the final pair of Sovremenny.

This exceeds the 180km of the YJ-83 and 300km of the YJ-83B, but below the strike range of the YJ-18 which is at 600 to 650km. The YJ-12 however greatly exceeds the range of the modified Moskit ME used previously and set at a range of 240km, which is double the range of the original Moskit at 120km.

The last two Sovremenny only has one AK-130 turret and these are specials made to PLAN requirements. This means the AK-130 is not really important to them if they ordered these ships with one AK-130 cut out. Instead the last two ships has the additional Pozitiv planar radar installed with two Kashtan CIWS, indicating that better close in defenses are closer to the PLAN's menu. This is inline with what we saw with the refits where there is a huge increase in close in defense capability.

The Pozitiv radar is an X-band surface search radar dedicated in detecting and tracking low flying objects like antiship missiles. Compared to the S-band, X-band is much more clutter resistant against surface clutter that antiship missiles use to hide and sneak up against a target. The Kashtan has two 30mm barrels each, the total output can be around 10,000 to 11,000 rounds per minute, with four short range missiles.

those are the old days. what the PLAN needed Sov for is no longer the same. whether it was air defence or anti-sub, the PLAN has found better ways to fill those gaps. as for anti-ship, i think sea launched yj-12 is only good for localized skirmishes, for example against a ROC frigate that the PLA does not want to bother sending air assets after. the one capability that the sovs have now that other PLAN vessels don't is the 130mm. I imagine those guns can do some good damage to beach fortifications.

 

[lcloo]

those are the old days. what the PLAN needed Sov for is no longer the same. whether it was air defence or anti-sub, the PLAN has found better ways to fill those gaps. as for anti-ship, i think sea launched yj-12 is only good for localized skirmishes, for example against a ROC frigate that the PLA does not want to bother sending air assets after. the one capability that the sovs have now that other PLAN vessels don't is the 130mm. I imagine those guns can do some good damage to beach fortifications.

130mm gun is not perculiar to PLAN's Sovremenny class ddgs, type 052D and type 055 have more modern 130mm guns abeit with single barrel instead of the twin barrel of AK-130. Also AK-130's maximum range is 23km while shore based anti-ship missiles have far greater ranges.

If any DDG sails within 23km from shore then they will face the danger of having the same fate as the Russian cruiser Moskva.