New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

[gelgoog]

Part of the reason Tesla has more margins than BYD is precisely because they have less models and even the models they do have, they are trying to unify the components as much as possible I think. Probably also reflects the fact BYD is targeting a wider range of vehicle segments in terms of price. Lower price cars typically have lower margins.

 

[pmc]

There is sales reports. France has less sales than Skorea. at this rate Europe will be smaller market than India. who thinks its good idea built battery plants in Europe when facing this anti business decisions.

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[supersnoop]

Part of the reason Tesla has more margins than BYD is precisely because they have less models and even the models they do have, they are trying to unify the components as much as possible I think. Probably also reflects the fact BYD is targeting a wider range of vehicle segments in terms of price. Lower price cars typically have lower margins.

Some of the articles I've read is that Tesla is not saddled with much legacy machinery. Since they don't have to worry about trying to depreciate some expensive stamping machine or whatever, they can develop new machinery and assembly techniques more relevant to EVs. It can be difficult to scale (which is why their production output is not always great), but if they hit the mark, it is much more efficient. BYD did invest quite a bit into legacy ICE for a while.

 

[AndrewS]

How battery chemistries differ between LFP, NCA, NMC below.

You can see Lithium is about 3% of the weight for any of these batteries.
Nickel is about 25% of the battery weight, except for LFP which doesn't use any nickel.

 

[tphuang]

Looks like CATL has some competition in the sodium ion battery front.

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Li-FUN also thinks it can mass produce sodium ion battery at 160 wh/kg in the cell level by 2023.

CATL announced it first in 2021

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There are numerous benefits to sodium ion batteries, but the greatest of which is probably just the overabundance of sodium and the low cost. As technology continues to improve, we may see cheaper cars and buses and mass storage using it. I would be curious if BYD is expanding its portfolio to this area also.

Speaking of BYD, frigate 07 PHEV will be released on May 28th

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this should lead to a lot more orders

 

[Overbom]

Big news

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CATL, the world's largest battery maker, is in the final stages of vetting sites in the United States to build electric vehicle batteries, an investment that would mark the Chinese company's first production in the world's second-largest car market, two people with knowledge of the plans told Reuters.

Contemporary Amperex Technology Co (CATL) is in talks to open plants that would serve BMW AG (BMWG.DE) and Ford Motor Co (F.N), and potential sites include South Carolina and Kentucky, where those automakers have assembly plants

In the case of the potential South Carolina plant, the goal would be for battery production to begin in 2026, one of the sources said. BMW is already a customer of CATL.

 

[supercat]

More battery news:
Tesla implies that their 4680 battery uses cobalt and the more expensive wet production process for the electrodes. These put a question mark behind Tesla's previous claim that there would be significant cost-reduction for 4680 battery.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1522597837606903808

 

[sndef888]

If CATL succeeds in commercialising 200Wh/kg sodium batteries it would make them truly dominant in the ev space. Imagine 700km range evs at half the price

Also, anybody know what the defense production act news is about?

 

[AndrewS]

If CATL succeeds in commercialising 200Wh/kg sodium batteries it would make them truly dominant in the ev space. Imagine 700km range evs at half the price

Also, anybody know what the defense production act news is about?

It will be interesting to see how they overcome the issue of cyanide gas produced from sodium batteries

 

[Chish]

P

I agree with your overall assessment, but I think some of the reasoning is not totally correct.

Joint Venture's issue is less technological, but more business. SAIC must balance the needs of their JV partners against their own. On top of this, SAIC is government owned corporation, so any bad faith actions by SAIC would be interpreted as state action against foreign partners which would harm potential future investment.

India is a perfect example of how harmful that can be. Ford left, GM left, etc.

Tech transfer stemming from JV was only one piece of the puzzle. The JV formation also provided exposure to western business practices and modern management techniques, over time building a competent cadre of business people who can subsequently bring the expertise elsewhere as well. Another piece would be providing a springboard for overseas educated and settled Chinese to return to China in a more familiar corporate setting. It sounds like a silly example, but you look at KFC China and actually it was quite important in this regard.

Executing tech transfer without the proper foundation is basically dooming yourself to failure.

Again India, you look at the Su-30, they had technology transfer agreement in place, but even today cannot build their own Flankers. When they tried to force technology transfer for Rafale, Dassault refused to warranty locally assembled aircraft because they could not guarantee the quality.

Back to the auto industry, Proton which had full support of the Malaysian government became a joke. So many decades and they could not even build a car that was better than Geely.

This is because Proton is owned by a political party and administrated along the party policies, with guaranteed government assistances and protections from competitors. Foreign auto are tariffed out of the local market. So car is just average at best and at very high price. Can't sell anywhere else.