055 DDG Large Destroyer Thread

[Tam]

He does raise a good point about the swift change in trajectory. Maybe we're all getting excited about basically the Yu-8 replacement?

Actually for an ABM interceptor, it can. The reason for this is that if the target is coming from an extreme range, at some point the target would rise above the radar horizon. That's probably how the Type 055 can pick up ballistic objects as they rise through the Earth's curve. If you are flying parallel from the Earth's surface and continued straight from that path, the Earth could curve under you and you will be flying into space.

Also ASROCs tend to have blunt ovoid end, because that's a torpedo there.

 

[ougoah]

I doubt it's either an ABM or an ASBM. The video shows it tipping over fairly quickly, which neither of those types would do. (And way too slow for a SAM/ABM.) I'm thinking it might be an air-breather that needs a large booster. Maybe a scramjet?

True and Tsirkon launches show missile tipping over as well. The issue with this is seemingly that it doesn't provide it with enough range but air breathers aren't really making use of all that potential energy and atmospheric bouncing around like an HGV does so maybe you're correct here with the speculation it's a scramjet.

What makes everyone think otherwise is the tip's resemblance to various SRBM tips. Unless of course these are just the fairings for the actual hypersonic vehicle within. Kind of like how the AGM-183's actual weapon is inside the fairing. We know Tsirkon's actual hypersonic vehicle is inside as well rather than for example on the DF-ZF on the DF-17.

Actually for an ABM interceptor, it can. The reason for this is that if the target is coming from an extreme range, at some point the target would rise above the radar horizon. That's probably how the Type 055 can pick up ballistic objects as they rise through the Earth's curve. If you are flying parallel from the Earth's surface and continued straight from that path, the Earth could curve under you and you will be flying into space.

Also ASROCs tend to have blunt ovoid end, because that's a torpedo there.

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Yeah almost definitely not a long range ASROC shown but an ABM even one that is picking up a target at extreme range should still be significantly faster even during this initial directing phase. Normally long range SAMs always want to pick up altitude no matter what even if it is a relatively low flying target at extreme range. It still makes no sense to course correct so low and expend that much energy doing it when the potential energy in altitude is far more useful. Targets cannot be that low to be course correcting like this.

 

[ACuriousPLAFan]

Just a small interjection.

Are the UVLS cells onboard the Type 055s larger than the ones onbaord the Type 052Ds? Or the UVLS on both ship classes are of the same type and dimension?

 

[Gloire_bb]

Just a small interjection.

Are the UVLS cells onboard the Type 055s larger than the ones onbaord the Type 052Ds? Or the UVLS on both ship classes are of the same type and dimension?

We don't know.
There was a rumor that only 16 cells on 052D are of strike length(9m ones), while all cells on 055 are of the largest size. But how credible it was - well...

 

[Tam]

True and Tsirkon launches show missile tipping over as well. The issue with this is seemingly that it doesn't provide it with enough range but air breathers aren't really making use of all that potential energy and atmospheric bouncing around like an HGV does so maybe you're correct here with the speculation it's a scramjet.

What makes everyone think otherwise is the tip's resemblance to various SRBM tips. Unless of course these are just the fairings for the actual hypersonic vehicle within. Kind of like how the AGM-183's actual weapon is inside the fairing. We know Tsirkon's actual hypersonic vehicle is inside as well rather than for example on the DF-ZF on the DF-17.



Yeah almost definitely not a long range ASROC shown but an ABM even one that is picking up a target at extreme range should still be significantly faster even during this initial directing phase. Normally long range SAMs always want to pick up altitude no matter what even if it is a relatively low flying target at extreme range. It still makes no sense to course correct so low and expend that much energy doing it when the potential energy in altitude is far more useful. Targets cannot be that low to be course correcting like this.

I don't know about faster because that would shorten the range. You might have a dual or multiple pulse motor here with the initial phase being a slow burn to increase range.

If your trajectory is nearly straight up against a ballistic object, then you are intercepting something at much closer range. That's actually what some SAMs can do. But for much longer ranges, the trajectory needs to be much more slanted.

 

[Blitzo]

Just a small interjection.

Are the UVLS cells onboard the Type 055s larger than the ones onbaord the Type 052Ds? Or the UVLS on both ship classes are of the same type and dimension?

All have the same cross section/diameter. The UVLS is the same in that regard

052D and 055 should both have 9m long (longest) variants of the UVLS, but 055 should have more of its cell count be the 9m long variant, while 052D has previously been said to perhaps have only 16 of its 64 UVLS cells be 9m while the rest are 7m.

 

[Tam]

We don't know.
There was a rumor that only 16 cells on 052D are of strike length(9m ones), while all cells on 055 are of the largest size. But how credible it was - well...

This is based on the observation that YJ-18s are launched on the 052D from VLS blocks 3 and 4, assuming 1,2,3, and 4 for the frontal VLS. The VLS on the front, particularly closer to the superstructure can be deeper because there is no machinery at the bottom with the ship's citadel or machinery section beginning where you are under the superstructure. The aft VLS should be shallower since it is over the machinery sections. So far we have not seen the YJ-18 being fired off from Blocks 1,2, and from the four aft VLS (5,6,7,8). I do suspect though, that blocks 1 and 2 at the front might also be 9 meter capable and its just the PLAN having a fixed artificial assignment of 8 to 16 ASMs per ship.

On the other hand, YJ-18s are fired off from the rear VLS of the 055, which was a surprise to me, because you assume the rear VLS should be shallower because it maybe over machinery sections. What is underneath the aft VLS may not be as empty as under the front VLS. Since the YJ-18s are fired off from the rear VLS, we may assume that the front ones are just as deep.

 

[gongolongo]

Why develop a new ASBM though? Isn't the YJ-18 already really good? Could it be a hypersonic interceptor instead?

AShM would have more range

 

[Jason_]

The S-300V/SA-12 Giant is an ABM with fins on the upper stage and a very large booster.

The SM-3 series follows an incremental design process where the missile body and boosters for Block I is recycled from the SM-2 ER series. Had it been a clean slate design as a PLAN ABM would be, the size ratio of the booster and upper stages wouldn’t necessarily be what it is today.
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View attachment 87372

And then there is the Israeli Arrow 2 ABM.

• booster to upper stage ratio ~1:1 (check)
• booster thicker than upper stage (check)
• upper stage has fins (check)
• bi-conical upper stage (check)
• tips over after launch (check)
• Arrow 2 is 7m long and 800mm in diameter with a launch weight of 2800kg
• wikipedia gives 2.5km/s burnout velocity with a 150kg warhead and dual radar/IIR seekers

The new PLAN missile for comparison

Applying the

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, a missile with 2.5km/s burnout velocity would have a range of 771km when fired in maximum range ballistic trajectory. Solid rocket motor technology is pretty much the same for all advanced military powers. So unless the PLAN missile has a smaller warhead of <150kg (bad for anti-ship) or smaller/fewer sensors (bad for anti-ship), we are looking at a <1000km class SRBM, which is in my mind is of questionable usefulness range and survivability-wise against US CBGs.

So base on this, I would argue that judging from physical appearance, behavior after launch and back of the envelope calculations, the case for this being an ABM is at least as strong as it being an ASBM.

 

[Deino]

Guys ... shouldn't we better move this most interesting discussion to an own thread? It is not really related to the Type 055!