Ukrainian War Developments

[Phead128]

stop playing word again.

This is what you said:

Sino-Ruso relationship is defined by China as 新时代全面战略协作伙伴关系, Full spectrum strategic "collaboration" partnership
.....
It is an alliance without the word "alliance".

and this what Chinese Foreign Ministry said in past 2 weeks:

Wang Wenbin: China and Russia are comprehensive strategic partners of coordination. Our relationship features non-alliance, non-confrontation and non-targeting of any third party.

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Hua Chunying: "I must also stress that China-Russia relations are based on the foundation of non-alliance, non-confrontation and non-targeting of any third party. This differs fundamentally and essentially from the practice of the US, which is, ganging up to form small cliques and pursuing bloc politics to create confrontation and division based on ideology. China has no interest in the friend-or-foe dichotomous Cold War thinking and the patchwork of so-called allies and small cliques and has no intention to follow such a path."

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They literally said it was a "Non-Alliance", so none of this bullshit about "Alliance without saying it's alliance." The Chinese gov't literally said it was NOT an alliance. Don't dilute the meaning of "ally" when there are real alliances (NATO, Sino-DPRK, ROK-US, JPN-US, CSTO, etc...) with your lazy wording and loose interpretation.

 

[MortyandRick]

Man, the Americans are ruthless enemies. I wonder what Russia's respond to it if the U.S. and it's vassals follow through the recommendation of this ruthless strategic thinker.

Ruthless yes. Strategic, remains to be seen. Treating Russia like it's Iran is not going to work IMO. Russia is too large, and has too many other resources.

When Iran was first sanctioned, china came out and indicated that they valued their relationship with the US more than Iran. And china tried to follow through with the sanctions, as their relationship with the US was still ok. Additionally other countries like Saudi Arabia and OPEC plus had agreed to increase output.

Now it's a whole different situation. I don't think china would grossly favor their relationship with the US over Russia. Also OPEC doesn't seem to be increasing their oil output. The only way is for the US to unsanction Iran and Venezuela. I hope that Iran and Venezuela will take the chance to increase their demands. Also I don't think Iran can completely offset Russia oil to Europe. Time will tell.

 

[SinoSoldier]

Daily update from the team at Guancha:

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They pointed out several things missed in this thread:

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That's an insane number of Ukrainian planes to be shot down in one day at this stage in the war, not quite sure what to make of this. Zhytomir is about 140km west of Kyiv and apparently getting pounded hard from the air. Other than the air battle RuAF supposedly destroyed an ammo dump holding Javlin and NLAW there.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1500460900473573379

BM-30 Smerch 300mm MLRS has apparently started pounding Mykolaiv from Kherson.

Take these rumors with a dash of salt until there is video or photographic evidence. The misinformation campaign is strong from both sides.

 

[Lapin]

Nice fields all arround to do a nice fair war, mano to mano, without a lot of civilians death. But no... they need that bloodshed.

"A nice fair war"? Like a test cricket match?

Why did the Soviet 62nd Army not leave the ruins of Stalingrad and 'fairly fight' the German Sixth Army on the open steppe?

According to Herodatus, the Persian Emperor Darius I invaded the lands of the Scythians, who refused to engage him in battle.
In frustration, Darius I sent an envoy to demand the Scythians stop evading his pursuit and stand fast and fight a decisive battle.
The Scythian King Idanthyrsus replied that his people would fight only at a time and place of his choosing.
Until then, he said that his enemy should 'Go weep.'

Ukraine's government hopes for and needs a Lusitania incident to help draw the USA or NATO into the war.

 

[taxiya]

This is what you said:


and this what Chinese Foreign Ministry said in past 2 weeks:





They literally said it was a "Non-Alliance", so none of this bullshit about "Alliance without saying it's alliance." The Chinese gov't literally said it was NOT an alliance. Don't dilute the meaning of "ally" when there are real alliances (NATO, Sino-DPRK, ROK-US, JPN-US, CSTO, etc...) with your wishful thinking.

See my updated reply.

I said China and Russia are allies without the word ally. That is the same with DPRK. The treaty you referred to China and DPRK does not carry the word alliance or ally. So you are playing the game of "ally must be ally in word", IMO that is just playing the word.

Yes Chinese FM may have said "non alliance with Russia", but China has never said "alliance with DPRK" either. Does that make China not an ally with DPRK? Certainly not according to you.

 

[LawLeadsToPeace]

FFS. Please stay on topic you guys. It's not that hard to transfer the conversation to another thread.

 

[Helius]

"A nice fair war"? Like a test cricket match?

Why did the Soviet 62nd Army not leave the ruins of Stalingrad and 'fairly fight' the German Sixth Army on the open steppe?

According to Herodatus, the Persian Emperor Darius I invaded the lands of the Scythians, who refused to engage him in battle.
In frustration, Darius I sent an envoy to demand the Scythians stop evading his pursuit and stand fast and fight a decisive battle.
The Scythian King Idanthyrsus replied that his people would fight only at a time and place of his choosing.
Until then, he said that his enemy should 'Go weep.'

Ukraine's government hopes for and needs a Lusitania incident to help draw the USA or NATO into the war.

LOL the "Cry ab it" of the Classical Age.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Not only is Russia a great power - it is a former superpower still holding on to delusions of grandeur. Russia is never going to accept being a junior partner in a Sino-Russian partnership. While both nations benefit today from partnership and cooperation in many arenas, and both have a shared interest in standing up against US led imperialism, their relationship should be recognized for what it is rather than what it is not.

Also, Chinese should not forget all that Imperial Russia and the USSR have taken from China in the past 200 years. If the USSR had their way, China wouldn't have a Xinjiang problem today because Xinjiang would not even be Chinese, just like Outer Mongolia and Outer Manchuria.

Outer Manchuria was some no man's land that had almost no Chinese residents and the emperor didn't care about, which is why

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. That treaty, btw,

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so what's fair is fair otherwise Russia can be the one to claim China stole their land and then Mongolia has claims on both. Russia didn't conquer the land, Qing gave it up to focus on other problems, of which there were many in 1850's China. Shit happens, imperial borders change, not always due to violence.

In contrast, see how Qing defended Guangzhou and only gave up Hong Kong at all (a useless fishing village) due to extreme coercion and complete defeat. Seems like Qing emperor cared far more about a tiny fishing village than about the entirety of Outer Manchuria. Nobody believes that you or the other people who are "Outer Manchuria, Outer Manchuria" all day are truly passionate about Outer Manchuria otherwise they'd know that simple fact that Qing gave it up with barely a fight while they would rather die than give up a single speck of Guangdong. Nobody is stupid, we can see what is fake outrage and what is real outrage.

On the actual topic, the historical proof shows that Russia and China were able to coexist for 400+ years with only minor border changes and low levels of violence, even when both were imperialist powers. Now that neither are imperial powers, the border has been settled. There's no issue with Russia today. It's over. The historical pre-1680's borders are restored.

So no, there's no issue with Russia having whatever views. Views are typically shaped by reality. They either know what's good for them or they don't. Those who don't know what's good for them go extinct.

Russians, like Chinese, are pragmatic and survival oriented. They don't get high on copium. Those who are more... 'idealistic'... tend to go for the copium. Remember it wasn't a Russian that said "we create our own reality" nor was it a Russian that said "facts don't matter".

 

[Lapin]

I am wondering but what’s the need for Russia to assault Kiev anyway. Their military reputation is already tarnished. Won’t change anything if they decide to move in or not on Kiev. Why not cut the power and starve them out because it’s quite clear the Ukrainian cities did not stockpile food before hand. Kiev may have greater food stocks but the west aren’t airlifting dropping supplies into the city are they.

"Why not cut the power and starve them out because it’s quite clear the Ukrainian cities did not stockpile food before hand."

I am not convinced that the traditional strategy of starving a besieged city into submission can succeed in the 21st century.
Particularly when that city is inhabited by white Europeans, armed with the power of images distributed to the internet.
How would Western governments and peoples respond to months of anguished pleas from starving, if not dying, Ukrainians?
Would Western governments demand that Russia at least allow a huge airlift of food and medicine to sustain everyone in Kyiv?
Would popular pressure for NATO military intervention grow irresistible?

Would Ukraine's government be willing to sacrifice Kyiv's civilian population as ruthlessly as the Soviet leadership sacrificed
besieged Leningrad's civilian population in the winter of 1941-42? Would Western powers allow millions of deaths in Kyiv?

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

"Why not cut the power and starve them out because it’s quite clear the Ukrainian cities did not stockpile food before hand."

I am not convinced that the traditional strategy of starving a besieged city into submission can succeed in the 21st century.
Particularly when that city is inhabited by white Europeans, armed with the power of images distributed to the internet.
How would Western governments and peoples respond to months of anguished pleas from starving, if not dying, Ukrainians?
Would Western governments demand that Russia at least allow a huge airlift of food and medicine to sustain everyone in Kyiv?
Would popular pressure for NATO military intervention grow irresistible?

Would Ukraine's government be willing to sacrifice Kyiv's civilian population as ruthlessly as the Soviet leadership sacrificed
besieged Leningrad's civilian population in the winter of 1941-42? Would Western powers allow millions of deaths in Kyiv?

without power, there's no internet. so cutting both power and food works.

One less brutal thing Russia can do is allow a few UN observers from NATO countries but not representing NATO to monitor the civilian evacuation of Kyiv at strictly set date and time. The observers will be flying in under the UN flag and escorted by Russian forces. They will be allowed to monitor the entirety of the evacuation route starting N hours prior to the evacuation and ending N hours after. Russia will livestream every second of the UN observer presence. And then, that's their last chance to surrender.