Indian Economics thread.

[Gloire_bb]

How the two countries want aircraft carriers is a great example of this difference in mentality. The Chinese want to get aircraft carriers to protect their sovereignty and wealth. But the Indians would rather starve to get an aircraft carrier, so that they could perform power projection onto other countries. India have used its aircraft carrier to blockade Pakistan in the past. Jai Hinds now wet dream to do the same against China.

Not exactly on topic here, but Indians (1)used carriers exactly how they're supposed to be used, (2)priority list of Air defense ships isn't exactly focused on power projection, and (3)for India "ability to protect sovereignty and wealth"(in a naval sense) comes hand in hand with the ability to "do the same against China". Or others, for the matter - China wasn't always the threat, nor is solidified as one for all eternity.
Simply due to geography, they're either capable of doing both protection and blockading (naval superiority in the whole Indian ocean) or capable of neither.

This is the difference between the mentality of China and India. China never pursue the dream of greatness through superpower status. Whereas India shamelessly does.

To be fair, in the Chinese case simply restoring to a normal historical state of affairs means pretty much it(superpower status).
Which is why most countries around are nervous, like it or not.

 

[ougoah]

Exactly.

How the two countries want aircraft carriers is a great example of this difference in mentality. The Chinese want to get aircraft carriers to protect their sovereignty and wealth. But the Indians would rather starve to get an aircraft carrier, so that they could perform power projection onto other countries. India have used its aircraft carrier to blockade Pakistan in the past. Jai Hinds now wet dream to do the same against China.

Jai Hinds constantly contradict themselves. On one hand, they talk about India overtaking China. One another, they say that India is already ahead of China. How can you win a race if you don't even know where your actual position is?

India on paper has all the basic ingredients to becomes a country as successful as China. But India will never realise its dream to become a superpower. Simply because of its mentality. India has the wrong aims for coveting power, it lacks self reflection, it lacks self development, it is intensely envious in a negative way, it is very arrogant, and it is easily manipulated by imperialist powers. Not a mentality for success.

Except India's carriers are not capable of power projection since they are relatively undefended. With only a single work in progress modern air defence destroyer that is itself heavily based on the Kolkata class (basically the exact same ship except with more Indian equipment and some electronic upgrades... same weight same VLS numbers and same main radar and weapons), they simply do not have enough defending even one carrier let alone two.

This isn't enough for projection of any meaningful force on even Pakistan let alone more well armed nations.

They have three Kolkatas in operation and that's it. No more to be built until the Visakhpatnam is ready and it is not. That's 32 x 3 = 96 air defence missiles in total for the entire carrier fleet assuming the Indians use their entire modern destroyer force as part of this fleet.

A single Type 055 can be equipped with 114 air defence missiles in comparison. I'd say the Type 346B is at least one generation ahead of the Indian imported Israeli AESA. A single Type 055 also produces more power than the three Kolkatas combined. It may be intended for upgrades but it is being used for sensors even if there is a surplus of power produced.

Now let's factor in the fact that China has around 20 in service modern air defence destroyers in just the Type 052C and 052D along with three in service 055 and many more to come. Despite this I wouldn't even say China can project force far at all. India with just three Kolkatas with 32 cells for air defence each? Won't last 2 hours against Pakistan. I'm sure Pakistan has a lot more than 96 missiles and bombs to toss at them. So what projection? Projection implies ability to do war in another's home turf. Pakistan has hundreds of anti-ship missiles either from ships, coast, air, or submarines. Pakistan's airforce has more fighters than two Mig-29 fleets on small carriers. Mig-29s do not have decent range at all. Consider armed Mig-29s taking off from STOBAR carriers. Yeah I would say those Mig-29s have even less operational range than the shortest range coastal AShM from Pakistan.

 

[BlackWindMnt]

How many space assets does India actually have?
That was always the claim against China's missile shield, really nice all those missiles but if they don't reach their targets its useless.

 

[Gloire_bb]

Except India's carriers are not capable of power projection since they are relatively undefended. With only a single work in progress modern air defence destroyer that is itself heavily based on the Kolkata class, they simply do not have enough defending even one carrier let alone two.

(1)Realistically Indian ships are more of strike frigates by modern-day standards. There is a lot of politics in ship classification, but they are clearly not exactly in the same class as american/chinese AD destroyers.
(2)Actual number of ships in work is 9 - Nilgiri class carries the exact same AA suite as Visakhapatnams.
(3)Indian carriers carry Barak 8 themselves.

 

[Kaeshmiri]

Ford exits India.

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[KampfAlwin]

Ford exits India.

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Wow, not even cheap labor could make it profitable. Why?

 

[Sardaukar20]

(1)Realistically Indian ships are more of strike frigates by modern-day standards. There is a lot of politics in ship classification, but they are clearly not exactly in the same class as american/chinese AD destroyers.
(2)Actual number of ships in work is 9 - Nilgiri class carries the exact same AA suite as Visakhapatnams.
(3)Indian carriers carry Barak 8 themselves.

Well. If we wanna get into the technicalities of the Indian Navy.

First, India only operates STOBAR carriers. Historically, modern STOBAR carriers are best suited for defensive doctrine. Such carriers can conduct offensive operations, but they are not as optimized as CATOBAR carriers. Now with Indian carriers carrying Barak-8, there is bound to be more limitations to the air wing size, and its resupply inventory. Since Indian carriers are about similar tonnage to large LHDs like the Wasp class, this is going to be an even greater issue.

Second. Indian naval air defence is overated. They have an over-reliance on the Barak-8 missiles. Instead of having a family of SAMs like the PLAN, Russian Navy, and USN. The Indian Navy ships are solely reliant on the Barak 8 for all ranges of air defence. Only complimented by CIWS for very short range air defence. Even the Barak 8 missile themselves look quite average on paper. So Indian naval air defence is incomparable to the capabilities of the PLAN.

3) India is yet to field even a basic long range ship launched cruise missile. Their only land strike option are the Brahmos missiles. Again, another overrated and over-relied weapon system.

So it's not about India has 'strike frigates', or 'aircraft-carrying cruisers'. Basically their naval ship designs and doctrines are a mess. India wants a pseudo blue water navy for power projection. But then their ships and weapons are actually more suited for defensive doctrines. Their naval air defence looks like a cheap fix with only one Barak-8 filling the roles of multiple types of SAMs.

I wouldn't listen too much to the Indian media and the Jai Hinds. The Indian Navy is only ok at best, but its not world-class. Its not even fitting for major powers like Russia and Japan. So if they dare to use it against a serious navy like the PLAN. They are going to get the lesson for a generation.

 

[Kaeshmiri]

Wow, not even cheap labor could make it profitable. Why?

The funny thing is how Indians plead Elon Musk to Manufacture cars in India . They're like "Sir Sir we cant afford Tesla but you can use India as export base it will be cheaper than China , also Sir we are a democracy !".

If all it takes is cheap labour then the world would be manufacturing not in China or Asia but Sub Saharan Africa where labour costs are less than a dollar a day. But who would explain to Indians about Logistcs, market size, supply chain, upstream/downstream requirements, regulations, consumer expenditure patterns, taxations etc

 

[Sardaukar20]

Ford exits India.

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Some quotes from the article:

“The decision was reinforced by years of accumulated losses, persistent industry overcapacity and lack of expected growth in India’s car market," said Anurag Mehrotra, managing director of Ford India. “We have not been able to find a sustainable path forward to long-term profitability that includes in-country vehicle manufacturing.

Ford is the latest carmaker to cease production in India, following companies such as General Motors and Harley Davidson to exit a market, which once promised exponential growth.

I thought India is the new China? I thought India has a large population, and so it must have a similar-sized economy at least? I thought some Jai Hinds claimed that India has the world's largest middle class? I thought 'Democratic India' has a better, more progressive economy than 'Communist China'? I thought India and US have shared values? Isn't Make in India blooming according to Reuters? Huh? Then what's this then?

So what happened to: "We need to shift the supply chains to democracies only! All democracies must stand together against Communist China!" Yeah right! LOL!

The moves by Ford are a further blow to Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s Make-in-India programme, which encourages companies to manufacture locally. Tesla Inc. has urged Modi’s administration to allow it to import cars more cheaply before it commits to setting up a factory in the country.

Ford India racked up more than $2 billion in losses during the past decade and wrote down the value of its business by about $800 million in 2019.

This is the true reality of Make in India. Jai Hind!

 

[ZeEa5KPul]

But who would explain to Indians about Logistcs, market size, supply chain, upstream/downstream requirements, regulations, consumer expenditure patterns, taxations etc

It doesn't even need to get that far. If a factory hung up a sign that read "you must be able to write your own name to enter" it would be deserted.