Ladakh Flash Point

[Hendrik_2000]

Welcome my Buddhist friend.
I see to fit in you have already started putting Indians, particularly Hindus down. You might last here.
You are in a environment in which the people practise might is right. All your well reasoned posts will go to waste.
And your history lesson is already well understood here but its a waste as this is a place for real politic. With well entrenched positions.
For example if you ask them why did the Chinese troops occupy common patrolling land , they will put it on Indians, totally ignoring the timeline.
I have tried to press them to answer as this site claims to be hosted in a US server but either they are afraid or know its a Chinese aggression and divert the topic.
So everything except the origin of the ladakh clash will be discussed.
My position is very clear. India has started arming itself subsequent to the clash, discarding the normal bureaucratic route.
Peace between the 2 countries was dependent on India not objecting to the constant Chinese nibbling at the borders. But Indian reaction like in doklam has humiliated the Chinese top leaders and the ladakh clash was probably a reaction.
Whatever the reason, the opaque Chinese are not going to give a straight answer, but atleast India has trashed the policy of depending on the goodwill of china to maintain peace on the borders.
Now peace will be maintained through good old military deterrence or maybe peace wont be maintained ?
With china's expansionist tendencies and india's determination to maintain the status quo, a more serious clash is inevitable
Que sera sera.

That is complete BS and distortion of the fact. Indian started first by insisting McMahon line as the border between India and China. China never accept this imaginary line drawn by the British without the consent or agreement by China. Border is decided by both side of the border thru joint survey and historical data and agreed by both side. What India does is one sided declare their border and forced China to accept it . It will never happened. But the tragedy is India believe in his own propaganda and never own the truth of "Nehru forward policy" China has no interest in humiliating or has any design on Indian territory. IN 1962 China won the war and occupy Ladakh and South Tibet . But She give it up and return to LAC so as not to humiliate India and She believe border must be negotiated in give and take spirit. China has resolve all the land border with 13 of her neighbor save for India and Bhutan . That should tell you who is unreasonable here!
India is far from peaceful country she annex Sikkim. Goa, Kashmir, South Tibet, Ladakh

 

[Mohsin77]

Many Indians Muslims are extremely warm but they became victims of politics. Remember, India got divided on religious lines in 1947 and a lingering suspicion in many Hindus has always been that Muslims will eventually make India a Muslim country. I have seen many such discussions where people cite how central Asia, Afpak and others lost their Indic heritage to become Islamic and fall in chaos. The recent Hindutva politics has its root in Hindus being ethnically cleansed in Kashmir in late 80’s, early 90’s. This had nothing to do with Indian Muslims. It was the same time period when Russia was leaving Afghanistan and the resources/fighters left over from Afghan Jihad were directed into Kashmir. I certainly feel Indians and Pakistanis need to sober up and mature their attitude. A point scoring, feeling happy on someone's harm is not a good attitude. I know many of my Muslim friends who stand up for India more than others and even fight with Pakistanis who accuse them of being lesser Muslims or being not that fair in colour. My brother-in-law does sympathise with Pakistan because it is a Muslim country but not because he feels lesser Indian. He says Indian Muslims got treated as Muhajirs(refugees) there. People like Salman Taseer who spoke against infamous blasphemy law got assassinated. He felt if Pakistan had become a modern Islamic state showing Indian values and roots it would have done a world of good to south Asia. Instead, he feels Pakistanis show themselves as having descended from Turks/Arabs/Iranis to mock Indians forgetting that culturally all their habits and customs are Indian. Pakistanis often say they ruled India for 700-1000 years, how Indians are inferior race, not that fair in colour, how many of their kings pillaged India. All stereotypes. Many of these Muslim kings had Hindu chieftains and soldiers and many Hindu kings had Muslim soldiers. Many of the central Asian invaders actually defeated Indian Muslim kings for example Babar (founder of Mughal rule) defeated Ibrahim Lodi (A Muslim king) Most of India never was under a single ruler. It always had Hindu rulers in several parts. Many countries like Burma / Srilanka /southern Nepal have been part of many Indian empires which never had Hindu or Muslim rulers.

That's a very convenient 'potpourri' of a story which turns all complex issues into a caricature, like in a Bollywood movie.

Your Evidence: "Well, I heard this Pakistani say X, and my friend said Y, and also Z happened in Pakistan once, so like, yea..."

Now you just need to add a song & dance scene and you'll be all set.

p.s. If I start listing all the stuff I've heard from random Indians (even if I just restrict myself to this very thread) it would paint a very different picture. Even if we start cherry-picking single events from the news, India is still gonna come out looking way worse, I assure you.

 

[Abhimanyu]

Welcome my Buddhist friend.
I see to fit in you have already started putting Indians, particularly Hindus down. You might last here.
You are in a environment in which the people practise might is right. All your well reasoned posts will go to waste.
And your history lesson is already well understood here but its a waste as this is a place for real politic. With well entrenched positions.
For example if you ask them why did the Chinese troops occupy common patrolling land , they will put it on Indians, totally ignoring the timeline.
I have tried to press them to answer as this site claims to be hosted in a US server but either they are afraid or know its a Chinese aggression and divert the topic.
So everything except the origin of the ladakh clash will be discussed.
My position is very clear. India has started arming itself subsequent to the clash, discarding the normal bureaucratic route.
Peace between the 2 countries was dependent on India not objecting to the constant Chinese nibbling at the borders. But Indian reaction like in doklam has humiliated the Chinese top leaders and the ladakh clash was probably a reaction.
Whatever the reason, the opaque Chinese are not going to give a straight answer, but atleast India has trashed the policy of depending on the goodwill of china to maintain peace on the borders.
Now peace will be maintained through good old military deterrence or maybe peace wont be maintained ?
With china's expansionist tendencies and india's determination to maintain the status quo, a more serious clash is inevitable
Que sera sera.

I will never put down any Indian. Infact I will never put down anyone. I know both within India and China the other is seen as an aggressor and there are nationalistic feelings in both places. What I have learnt living outside India, is that we Indians react a lot more emotionally and sometimes we just need to rationalise those emotions. Chinese on the other hand react a bit too practically which I feel sometimes lacks understanding human emotion. It is a gap, not easily reconcilable.

That is complete BS and distortion of the fact. Indian started first by insisting McMahon line as the border between India and China. China never accept this imaginary line drawn by the British without the consent or agreement by China. Border is decided by both side of the border thru joint survey and historical data and agreed by both side. What India does is one sided declare their border and forced China to accept it . It will never happened. But the tragedy is India believe in his own propaganda and never own the truth of "Nehru forward policy" China has no interest in humiliating or has any design on Indian territory. IN 1962 China won the war and occupy Ladakh and South Tibet . But She give it up and return to LAC so as not to humiliate India and She believe border must be negotiated in give and take spirit. China has resolve all the land border with 13 of her neighbor save for India and Bhutan . That should tell you who is unreasonable here!
India is far from peaceful country she annex Sikkim. Goa, Kashmir, South Tibet, Ladakh

All i will say is in the current scenario both sides know the cost of escalation else things would have escalated one way or another. Therefore peace is inevitable but not in the short term. In short term people must focus on being friends with each other, not keep bitterness inside and look how things can move towards an agreement. The human aspect should pave the way forward.

That's a very convenient 'potpourri' of a story which turns all complex issues into a caricature, like in a Bollywood movie.

Your Evidence: "Well, I heard this Pakistani say X, and my friend said Y, and also Z happened in Pakistan once, so like, yea..."

Now you just need to add a song & dance scene and you'll be all set.

That post made me smile. Indians and Pakistanis have a lot more in common than we can perhaps think. Indians and Pakistanis help each other and have excellent relations outside sub-continent except when cricket matches or political demonstrations happen which can bring old animosities out in a flick. They can talk to each other more easily than they can talk to anyone else. We do think religion divides us but many of Prophet Muhammad's progeny had sought refuge in India( Now Pakistan) under Raja Dahir specially the affafi clan from Mecca which later led to invasion of India by Umayyads. India in its prosperous times has given refuge to Jews, Iranians and many other people escaping war. There is hardly a village in India where you won't find a mosque. One of the contentions between India and China starting in 1959 was refuge given to Dalai Lama which made China suspect India and it still does which brings me to Indians and Chinese.

Indians and Chinese on other hand have deep cultural links. There was never a historical war except maybe the one mentioned in this thread here before which was more of a Nepali Tibetan fighting someone in southern Nepal/Bihar(a far local skirmish). The next one was when the Sikh empire was expanding and incidentally both sides stopped at the point when they realised cost of escalation. The next one was 1962 which India lost. The next one was in 1967 after which decades of peace happened. Indians and Chinese will either share normal or friendly relations elsewhere but i haven't seen then bearing animosity or ill will. They both are after better economic status. I have even met so many Indians now with Chinese spouses and I am not sure what they think about politics but if love can happen there then it can in real life.

Which then leads me to Bollywood movies, . I will love if Indians actually can learn pragmatism from Chinese. For that matter, we all can learn that from Chinese.

 

[duskseeker]

It is precisely because of such a mindset that already has a strong prevalence among many Indians (majority) that I am still baffled as to why China has been so 'easy-going' towards India.
Many Indian intellectuals and Military leaders have repeatedly demonised China, have called for opposing China, and to split China into multiple regions/nations if given the opprotunity. India will surely initiate appropriate destabilising undertakings against China, may not be today but surely in the future if ever India feels it has military parity and can get away with harming China (in collaboration with the US and allies).
China may rue the missed opportunities to put India in its place. Most of the Indian citizens, even the educated ones, have already been turned into anti-china citizens.

I really think that the Chinese leadership do not truly grasp how much hatred has been whipped up against China and Chinese people ( no longer just the Communist party , but even the Chinese people), and I have a feeling this will continue to fester and will continue to be used as a Politcal weapon for any political party, and such a festering wound will only become outright hostility, just as the US and the West has whipped up China-threat and China-hatred to an unreasonable amount. The bigger danger is that the India is right next door.

Mark my words, any natural disasters or calamity in China will be met with joy and celebrations in India, any future failure of Chinese Space exploration will be met with jubilation, any Loses China suffers in any part of the world will be hailed as the locals standing up to the 'ruthless and Godless Chinese' etc. there will not even be a hint of remorse because China is 'evil', the Chinese are ,Godless people without conscience', for the Chinese 'only money is king above even Human Life' etc.

Any future wars China may encounter will always have to be with the realization that India will strike on China's western Borders, no matter how easily many in this forum dismiss Indian capabiltities.

I've been telling people about this for month and they have all brushed me aside as well. Thinking if you prove you're good enough people will respect you.

 

[Abhimanyu]

It is precisely because of such a mindset that already has a strong prevalence among many Indians (majority) that I am still baffled as to why China has been so 'easy-going' towards India.
Many Indian intellectuals and Military leaders have repeatedly demonised China, have called for opposing China, and to split China into multiple regions/nations if given the opprotunity. India will surely initiate appropriate destabilising undertakings against China, may not be today but surely in the future if ever India feels it has military parity and can get away with harming China (in collaboration with the US and allies).
China may rue the missed opportunities to put India in its place. Most of the Indian citizens, even the educated ones, have already been turned into anti-china citizens.

I really think that the Chinese leadership do not truly grasp how much hatred has been whipped up against China and Chinese people ( no longer just the Communist party , but even the Chinese people), and I have a feeling this will continue to fester and will continue to be used as a Politcal weapon for any political party, and such a festering wound will only become outright hostility, just as the US and the West has whipped up China-threat and China-hatred to an unreasonable amount. The bigger danger is that the India is right next door.

Mark my words, any natural disasters or calamity in China will be met with joy and celebrations in India, any future failure of Chinese Space exploration will be met with jubilation, any Loses China suffers in any part of the world will be hailed as the locals standing up to the 'ruthless and Godless Chinese' etc. there will not even be a hint of remorse because China is 'evil', the Chinese are ,Godless people without conscience', for the Chinese 'only money is king above even Human Life' etc.

Any future wars China may encounter will always have to be with the realization that India will strike on China's western Borders, no matter how easily many in this forum dismiss Indian capabiltities.

These are angry irrational reactions which few people do on social media for point scoring. Please note that information has no control in India which is again a con for democracy. The pro being that people can speak what they want but i certainly feel that hate speech or fake news needs to be controlled. India is a big nation, billion population and if 0.1% of those people react, it can feel like the whole nation coming for you.

Most sensible Indians will let the emotions vent but understand that a war will never be beneficial. It is the same for China.

I've been telling people about this for month and they have all brushed me aside as well. Thinking if you prove you're good enough people will respect you.

You should certainly tell people what you feel like. The sensible people in both countries will let time pass and emotions cooled.

 

[duskseeker]

These are angry irrational reactions which few people do on social media for point scoring. Please note that information has no control in India which is again a con for democracy. The pro being that people can speak what they want but i certainly feel that hate speech or fake news needs to be controlled. India is a big nation, billion population and if 0.1% of those people react, it can feel like the whole nation coming for you.

Most sensible Indians will let the emotions vent but understand that a war will never be beneficial. It is the same for China.

You should certainly tell people what you feel like. The sensible people in both countries will let time pass and emotions cooled.

Nonsense, this abstract form of rectitude is bordering on naievity. It's the same reason why people who believe in cartoon animals die in the zoo when they jump the fence, or perhaps When Westerners come to Asia thinking they will be king and get robbed there. For the Chinese at least. All I hear is the mantra of peaceful rise, like the world will respect you or something. Big Fact.... They won't. Just like how the world for the last 5000 years. If you don't have soft power.... Then use real power.

 

[Mohsin77]

We do think religion divides us but many of Prophet Muhammad's progeny had sought refuge in India( Now Pakistan) under Raja Dahir specially the affafi clan from Mecca which later led to invasion of India by Umayyads. India in its prosperous times has given refuge to Jews, Iranians and many other people escaping war. There is hardly a village in India where you won't find a mosque. One of the contentions between India and China starting in 1959 was refuge given to Dalai Lama which made China suspect India and it still does which brings me to Indians and Chinese.

... and which RSS manual did you read this hindi fairytale from?

Because in actual history, the conflict between Muslims and the Subcontinent first began as a result of piracy from the Subcontinent, which was disrupting Arabian trade. The first contact was the Rashidun Caliphate sending naval expeditions to clear out pirate-nests. This problem continued into the Ummayad era, with piracy and kidnapping being a problem in this region historically. The official cause of the conquest of Sindh was Raja Dahir's refusal to return kidnapped Muslim women. And the fact that Raja Dahir was also harboring rebels, both remnants of the recently-conquered Persian empire and some Arab rebels after the Ummayads consolidated control, didn't help. (And no, those rebels were not "many of the Prophet's progeny." That may have been some Shia's deluded account, but back in that actual time, "shiaism" did not exist. Both "Sunni" and "Shia" ideologies were invented centuries later.)

First, you were pushing the agenda that Pakistanis should be more like Indians (i.e. have Indian values.) Now, you're fabricating false histories about the conquest of Sindh and the Prophet's progeny. You're riddled with Indian-Supremacist bias.

Now, stop dragging in Pakistan, Muslim culture and Islamic history into your hapless arguments. They have no relevance to this thread's topic.

 

[jfy1155]

New footage from the Galwan clash.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1422262532811763718

 

[Abhimanyu]

... and which RSS manual did you read this hindi fairytale from?

Because in actual history, the conflict between Muslims and the Subcontinent first began as a result of piracy from the Subcontinent, which was disrupting Arabian trade. The first contact was the Rashidun Caliphate sending naval expeditions to clear out pirate-nests. This problem continued into the Ummayad era, with piracy and kidnapping being a problem in this region historically. The official cause of the conquest of Sindh was Raja Dahir's refusal to return kidnapped Muslim women. And the fact that Raja Dahir was also harboring rebels, both remnants of the recently-conquered Persian empire and some Arab rebels after the Ummayads consolidated control, didn't help. (And no, those rebels were not "many of the Prophet's progeny." That may have been some Shia's deluded account, but back in that actual time, "shiaism" did not exist. Both "Sunni" and "Shia" ideologies were invented centuries later.)

First, you were pushing the agenda that Pakistanis should be more like Indians (i.e. have Indian values.) Now, you're fabricating false histories about the conquest of Sindh and the Prophet's progeny. You're riddled with Indian-Supremacist bias.

Now, stop dragging in Pakistan, Muslim culture and Islamic history into your hapless arguments. They have no relevance to this thread's topic.

Yes, I agree this is not relevant to topic and no I don't want Pakistanis to be like Indians. They are a strong proud people and should achieve their own goal of development.

 

[ougoah]

That's a very convenient 'potpourri' of a story which turns all complex issues into a caricature, like in a Bollywood movie.

Your Evidence: "Well, I heard this Pakistani say X, and my friend said Y, and also Z happened in Pakistan once, so like, yea..."

Now you just need to add a song & dance scene and you'll be all set.

p.s. If I start listing all the stuff I've heard from random Indians (even if I just restrict myself to this very thread) it would paint a very different picture. Even if we start cherry-picking single events from the news, India is still gonna come out looking way worse, I assure you.

Perfectly well said. The amount of confirmation bias and cherry picking used to support ridiculous positions is done by Indians at every level of a discussion whether it is two people conversing about a topic or diplomatic level I'm sure. They will even attack you for some way you chose to use a word. It is absolutely no use to engage in those sorts of dialogues at all.

They are a culture that choose to dwell in the world of imagination and suppositions. False charges, false claims, propelled by repeating mischaracterisations of reality. They choose to believe in a totally different set of how things are despite even some cases where evidence is shown if not being obvious enough without direct evidence shown.

I only hear Indians saying China has no technology industry because they don't see fancy Chinese videos presenting what they want to do. It gets done behind the scenes, it's not shown off, it isn't revealed until it is done but to these people it's all or nothing and they pick and choose as they see fit. Does it not explain why India is a nation much more entrenched in mysticism than almost any other and one that has gone backwards the most in the 21st century? Their leadership problem is top down. Their failures are failures of their leaders to address particularly troublesome aspects of their culture. Everyone has cultural problems and "bad" eggs. They just let the bad eggs take over narratives and influence leadership. It is a set of demagoguery politics. Until these are addressed and they have sensible people taking over policy, they will not be able to resolve conflicts with Pakistan or China. Not even resolve their conflicts with Bangladesh and Nepal despite EXTREMELY favourable political conditions and influence in those two countries.