Chinese Economics Thread

quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member

quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Why burn energy and computational power on a questionable investment when even major cities like Guangzhou are in danger of power shortage?
At its core, bitcoin is nothing more than an online excel spreadsheet globally sync'd...

Its just a peer to peer distributed general ledger is all... think of it like file sharing an excel spreadsheet...a spreadaheet with a max of 21 million rows, each row represents a virtual coin and people are trading the rows themselves, buying and selling the cells that are supposed to respresent money, basically the accounting units themselves becoming the speculative "asset" aka bubble squared

Why burn mountains of coal in the age of Post Peak Oil to maintain an online spreadsheet? why not just use google sheets or Xi DaDa's digital PetroYuan?
 

krautmeister

Junior Member
Registered Member
It's a dumb project and doesn't solve any water problems.

What is the timeline for this project? When will this project finish construction? When will this project pay off? How long is this project expect to last? The answer is probably hundreds of years for payback.
They were talking about transferring 60 billion cu/m of water annually and creating 200000 square kilometers of new arable land from desert and steppes, all flatlands. This while restoring the north china plain aquifers and completely reversing desertification all along Gansu, Shannxi, Shanxi, Hebei. There was talk of having the water transfer approach 90-100 billion cu/m but they decided to limit it to 60 billion cu/m in deference to the downstream riparian countries. It would also transform the ENTIRE southern part of the Tarim Basin from a huge desert into a gigantic oasis that would allow mostly untappable resources to now economically extractable resources. We're talking about all the oil, gas, minerals, agriculture, real estate development, etc.

Plus, the regional climatic changes this would cause would increase rainfall and drop temperatures all along China's northern and western peripheries. China's existing farmlands would also benefit as the temperate rain zone moved northward. We already have examples of this from the Loess Plateau reforestation project which resulted in increased rainfall to the extent that the entire ecosystem of Shanxi was transformed from barren wastes to the green fertile land it is today, not completely but largely because of increased rainfall.

Extensive land sale costs alone would pay the entire cost of the project. The multi-trillion cost would be easily recouped in under 10 years EASILY. We're talking about geoengineering almost a quarter of China's land area where a lot of the absolute poor used to live specifically because the environment made them that poor.


None of those questions will matter once the water runs out in Tibet. If those glaciers all melt, there is no source water and you end up with a dry trench costing trillions.
Those reports overstate the potential water problem. Glacier melt regulates river flow during the dry season through meltwater. Whether China went ahead or not with this project, that will eventually happen anyways someday. You're looking at this as if it would have zero effect. What would actually happen is, during the monsoon season, tens of billions of tonnes of water would be filling up China's underground aquifers, dams and reservoirs and supply the needed water during the dry season. The same would be happening in other countries but probably much less effectively. Imo, this project would be 50 times more beneficial than the 3 gorges dam, but way more risky because any single interruption along the water transfer in the southwest through the earthquake prone mountains would disrupt the water flow and force them to divert water back to the source rivers. In other words, the ongoing maintenance of this could be non-stop which means the water supply could potentially be unstable. Is it worth it anyways, Absolutely. We're talking about a fundamental strategic change to the land of China that would result in increased self-reliance of food, energy, raw materials, water, livable land, you name it. So, is it going to happen? From what we know, there is no official government interest in it. Most of the discussion about it has actually come from Indian anti-China media who reported it as China's plan to attack India's Brahmaputra River.
 
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PiSigma

"the engineer"
They were talking about transferring 60 billion cu/m of water annually and creating 200000 square kilometers of new arable land from desert and steppes, all flatlands. This while restoring the north china plain aquifers and completely reversing desertification all along Gansu, Shannxi, Shanxi, Hebei. There was talk of having the water transfer approach 90-100 billion cu/m but they decided to limit it to 60 billion cu/m in deference to the downstream riparian countries. It would also transform the ENTIRE southern part of the Tarim Basin from a huge desert into a gigantic oasis that would allow mostly untappable resources to now economically extractable resources. We're talking about all the oil, gas, minerals, agriculture, real estate development, etc.

Plus, the regional climatic changes this would cause would increase rainfall and drop temperatures all along China's northern and western peripheries. China's existing farmlands would also benefit as the temperate rain zone moved northward. We already have examples of this from the Loess Plateau reforestation project which resulted in increased rainfall to the extent that the entire ecosystem of Shanxi was transformed from barren wastes to the green fertile land it is today, not completely but largely because of increased rainfall.

Extensive land sale costs alone would pay the entire cost of the project. The multi-trillion cost would be easily recouped in under 10 years EASILY. We're talking about geoengineering almost a quarter of China's land area where a lot of the absolute poor used to live specifically because the environment made them that poor.



Those reports overstate the potential water problem. Glacier melt regulates river flow during the dry season through meltwater. Whether China went ahead or not with this project, that will eventually happen anyways someday. You're looking at this as if it would have zero effect. What would actually happen is, during the monsoon season, tens of billions of tonnes of water would be filling up China's underground aquifers, dams and reservoirs and supply the needed water during the dry season. The same would be happening in other countries but probably much less effectively. Imo, this project would be 50 times more beneficial than the 3 gorges dam, but way more risky because any single interruption along the water transfer in the southwest through the earthquake prone mountains would disrupt the water flow and force them to divert water back to the source rivers. In other words, the ongoing maintenance of this could be non-stop which means the water supply could potentially be unstable. Is it worth it anyways, Absolutely. We're talking about a fundamental strategic change to the land of China that would result in increased self-reliance of food, energy, raw materials, water, livable land, you name it. So, is it going to happen? From what we know, there is no official government interest in it. Most of the discussion about it has actually come from Indian anti-China media who reported it as China's plan to attack India's Brahmaputra River.

As someone who actually took a few courses on hydrogeology, I can tell you that the Tibet region and most areas along the route are very ground water poor. Water is locked into the glaciers in Tibet as a source. Once that source is depleted, there is no going back to replenish and the river will run dry.

Like you said, it could change the rainfall along the river by introducing moisture. However, the time duration of moisture introduction takes decades which China don't have. Where the rain falls, you won't know either.

The hamalayas actually block the monsoons, that's why Tibetan glaciers are all depleting, they only got there because of the last ice age. Check the Chinese precipitation logs, Tibet don't actually get that much rain or snow.
 

krautmeister

Junior Member
Registered Member
As someone who actually took a few courses on hydrogeology, I can tell you that the Tibet region and most areas along the route are very ground water poor. Water is locked into the glaciers in Tibet as a source. Once that source is depleted, there is no going back to replenish and the river will run dry.

Like you said, it could change the rainfall along the river by introducing moisture. However, the time duration of moisture introduction takes decades which China don't have. Where the rain falls, you won't know either.

The hamalayas actually block the monsoons, that's why Tibetan glaciers are all depleting, they only got there because of the last ice age. Check the Chinese precipitation logs, Tibet don't actually get that much rain or snow.
Most of the river water from the major rivers sourced for this project proposal aren't from meltwater, it's from rain. The Yarlung Tsangpo/Brahmatra gets almost all its water from rain, because it's river basin is part of the rain catchment area of the Himalayas relatively near the mountain foothills. It's also where most of the water for this project would come from. The other river sources the project taps are all well down river where the water sources are mostly from seasonal rains. The project developers were discussing taping water from the rivers flowing to South-east Asia but decided to limit it to prevent problems with those riparian countries. They didn't apply the same consideration to India and Bangladesh because the Yarlung Tsangpo/Brahmaputra is already an annual source of extreme flooding and it would actually be a net positive for the Brahmaputra to have significantly reduced flow, very especially during monsoon season. This is why Bangladesh doesn't really have grave concerns with China's Tibetan dam plans because it would actually benefit them. India on the other hand has been promoting non-stop conspiracy theories about China drying up their northeast provinces with those dams. For India, it's more about strategic control and sticking it to China. Btw, China recently approved the long anticipated "Great Bend" dam in Tibet. It will be the largest hydroelectric dam in the world by far producing over ~60GW vs 22.5GW for the Three Gorges Dam, when completed. If the "Red Flag River/Hongqi River" project ever gets approved, this would form part of that project.

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Skywatcher

Captain
Most of the river water from the major rivers sourced for this project proposal aren't from meltwater, it's from rain. The Yarlung Tsangpo/Brahmatra gets almost all its water from rain, because it's river basin is part of the rain catchment area of the Himalayas relatively near the mountain foothills. It's also where most of the water for this project would come from. The other river sources the project taps are all well down river where the water sources are mostly from seasonal rains. The project developers were discussing taping water from the rivers flowing to South-east Asia but decided to limit it to prevent problems with those riparian countries. They didn't apply the same consideration to India and Bangladesh because the Yarlung Tsangpo/Brahmaputra is already an annual source of extreme flooding and it would actually be a net positive for the Brahmaputra to have significantly reduced flow, very especially during monsoon season. This is why Bangladesh doesn't really have grave concerns with China's Tibetan dam plans because it would actually benefit them. India on the other hand has been promoting non-stop conspiracy theories about China drying up their northeast provinces with those dams. For India, it's more about strategic control and sticking it to China. Btw, China recently approved the long anticipated "Great Bend" dam in Tibet. It will be the largest hydroelectric dam in the world by far producing over ~60GW vs 22.5GW for the Three Gorges Dam, when completed. If the "Red Flag River/Hongqi River" project ever gets approved, this would form part of that project.

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It'll work, if you can use some sort of rainmaking technology to turn atmospheric moisture in precipitation that wouldn't happen otherwise (and that regional atmospheric humidity stays constant regardless of your rainmaking).
 

broadsword

Brigadier
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the small pilot system with a pane diameter of 10 centimeters delivered 4.6 milliliters of water per day under real-world conditions. Larger devices with larger panes would produce more water accordingly. The scientists were able to show that, under ideal conditions, they could harvest up to 0.53 decilitres (approximately 1.8 fluid ounces) of water per square meter of pane surface per hour. "This is close to the theoretical maximum value of 0.6 decilitres (2.03 ounces) per hour,

I hope Chinese scientists could introduce their own version.
 
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