054/A FFG Thread II

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Thanks, so if we compare the asw effectiveness of burke destroyer and 054a, how would that look?

That's difficult to answer, not to mention, both ships have different configurations within the class due to batch productions and refits. True sonar capabilities are also opsec on both sides. Don't ask these kinds of questions that you know you can't get a straight answer. US Navy has far more experience however and the better helicopter.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
@Tam
A question on 054a here: it has all these fancy sonars such as vds or tas, but i keep hearing people mentioning how its diesel engine is too noisy for asw tasks. I am not how should these factors be evaluated, appreciate if you would shed some light on it
Thanks in advanced
The vibrations can be dampened to a degree with vibration mounts. However, this is still inferior to a fully decoupled hybrid electric drive (FREMM frigate) or full electric propulsion (Type 45, Zumwalt) because the vibrations spread to the drive shaft which is in contact with the hull. The Queen Mary 2 ocean liner adopted full electric drive to minimize vibrations perceived by the passengers.
Thanks, so if we compare the asw effectiveness of burke destroyer and 054a, how would that look?
The FLII and newer Burkes easily win because they have 2 organic helicopters, each of which are far more capable than the single helicopter fielded by the 054A.
 

Akame

Junior Member
Registered Member
Will the new Frigate not be built (in modern terms) type-054 is not old compared to its competitors?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Thanks, so if we compare the asw effectiveness of burke destroyer and 054a, how would that look?

You can make up your mind and get a feel of the subject by looking at the capability.

Here is a good source you can read.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

H/SJG-206 Towed Array Sonar, developed in 2003. This is analogous or roughly equivalent to USN's AN/SQR-19 TACTAS. This is a passive towed array only, meaning its only listens and does not emit a sound to echo. Some Chinese articles are saying Type 206 TAS has a potential range up to 100km. You can believe or you can not, but at the very least, H/SJG-206 is an enormous step forward for Chinese sonars and ASW capability. Type 206 appears in the first 16 ships of the 054A, the six Type 052C and it was refitted to the Type 052 Harbin and Qingdao, replacing their original TAS and VDS.

Namely you drag around a line. Here is how the AN/SQR-19 looks like, and Type 206 should be similar.

towed-array.gif

H/SJG-206 is followed up by H/SJG-311, which I would here on refer to as Type 311 for simplicity. The difference is that it includes an active emitting sonar body, which we call the VDS on a separate reel.


w640slw.jpg

Should work like this.

asw_lcs.jpg


Having a towed array sonar with a variable depth sonar is currently the gold standard for submarine detection from a surface ship.

After the 16th Type 054A to the 30th, they are equipped with the Type 311. This is also the standard for the Type 052D and the Type 056A. However, we are also seeing older Type 054A getting overhauled, so there is a possibility Type 311 might be being refitted on older ships getting overhauls but we don't know for sure and there's no confirmation. Its something to look forward and consider about and to look for when we see new photographs. In addition we see 054A getting various minor refits and retcons, so the ships may not need a scheduled maintenance to undergo this upgrade procedure.

The two Type 054 currently on refit lacks both Type 206 and 311 in their original form, so I would be eager to see if the MLU overhaul would include this. We have seen the two Type 052 get new sonars, maybe Type 206 maybe Type 311 but for sure the ships got upgraded on their sonars, so that's a possibility they can do the same for the two frigates.

Burkes use the AN/SQR-19, but the AN/SQR-20 is now offered as part of refit, so older ships are being upgraded to this. SQR-20 features an active sonar component. New Burkes being introduced this decade should equip this as a standard.
 
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nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
That's difficult to answer, not to mention, both ships have different configurations within the class due to batch productions and refits. True sonar capabilities are also opsec on both sides. Don't ask these kinds of questions that you know you can't get a straight answer. US Navy has far more experience however and the better helicopter.
I think it is safe to guess that the Burke's being much larger ships, their sizeable bow sonars have the inherent potential to be more capable. Having said that, I agree that helicopters are the main ASW asset.
 

caohailiang

Junior Member
Registered Member
You can make up your mind and get a feel of the subject by looking at the capability.

Here is a good source you can read.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

H/SJG-206 Towed Array Sonar, developed in 2003. This is analogous or roughly equivalent to USN's AN/SQR-19 TACTAS. This is a passive towed array only, meaning its only listens and does not emit a sound to echo. Some Chinese articles are saying Type 206 TAS has a potential range up to 100km. You can believe or you can not, but at the very least, H/SJG-206 is an enormous step forward for Chinese sonars and ASW capability. Type 206 appears in the first 16 ships of the 054A, the six Type 052C and it was refitted to the Type 052 Harbin and Qingdao, replacing their original TAS and VDS.

Namely you drag around a line. Here is how the AN/SQR-19 looks like, and Type 206 should be similar.

View attachment 68734

H/SJG-206 is followed up by H/SJG-311, which I would here on refer to as Type 311 for simplicity. The difference is that it includes an active emitting sonar body, which we call the VDS on a separate reel.


View attachment 68736

Should work like this.

View attachment 68737


Having a towed array sonar with a variable depth sonar is currently the gold standard for submarine detection from a surface ship.

After the 16th Type 054A to the 30th, they are equipped with the Type 311. This is also the standard for the Type 052D and the Type 056A. However, we are also seeing older Type 054A getting overhauled, so there is a possibility Type 311 might be being refitted on older ships getting overhauls but we don't know for sure and there's no confirmation. Its something to look forward and consider about and to look for when we see new photographs. In addition we see 054A getting various minor refits and retcons, so the ships may not need a scheduled maintenance to undergo this upgrade procedure.

The two Type 054 currently on refit lacks both Type 206 and 311 in their original form, so I would be eager to see if the MLU overhaul would include this. We have seen the two Type 052 get new sonars, maybe Type 206 maybe Type 311 but for sure the ships got upgraded on their sonars, so that's a possibility they can do the same for the two frigates.

Burkes use the AN/SQR-19, but the AN/SQR-20 is now offered as part of refit, so older ships are being upgraded to this. SQR-20 features an active sonar component. New Burkes being introduced this decade should equip this as a standard.
Thank you very much for this. And do we know if z20 can fit into 054a, or it is stuck with z9?
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
Thank you very much for this. And do we know if z20 can fit into 054a, or it is stuck with z9?



One final thing. I expect all these ships to work like this, given that there are upgrades to the 054A's satellite communication systems that are visible over the years, . Not just the 054A but practically with every PLAN warship down to the 056/056A. They will use the satellite networks as a wireless router for cooperative data exchange and form a wide area net.



img2019_soubi_kansen01.png


For the purposes of ASW even the 053H2G and 053H3 might still be useful, as they feature towed arrays, helo decks complete with hangers. The question is whether they have been upgraded to the H/SJG-206 or H/SJG-311 from their original VDS. It would be easy to upgrade these ships, requiring only minimal modification. However with everything internal, confirmation of upgrades is impossible from a visual standpoint.

From the point of view of ASW, the two veteran 052 destroyers, the Qingdao and Harbin are much more useful than its successors, the 051B, the two 051C and the two 052B. The ships have two helicopters with hangers, and originally came with a VDS, leaving plenty of space for upgrades. During their lengthy refits, which ended in 2011, the ships are likely to have been upgraded to the H/SJD-9 bow sonar, same as the 052C/D, and either the H/SJG-206 or 311 for the towed sonars. If so, that makes them as useful for ASW purposes as any ship in the fleet.


images (16).jpeg


Heading forward, the question is whether the two 054 frigates being refitted would see some ASW related upgrades, like the mentioned towed arrays.
 

Tam

Brigadier
Registered Member
I think it is safe to guess that the Burke's being much larger ships, their sizeable bow sonars have the inherent potential to be more capable. Having said that, I agree that helicopters are the main ASW asset.

If I recall the Type 054A uses the H/SJD-9 bow sonar which is the same one used on the 052C/D. But I find pictures where the 054A bow is exposed to be very rare and information on the H/SJD-9 bow sonar to be scant. The Burke has a big bow sonar called SQS-59, and its in the process of being upgraded to SQQ-89.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
One final thing. I expect all these ships to work like this, given that there are upgrades to the 054A's satellite communication systems that are visible over the years, . Not just the 054A but practically with every PLAN warship down to the 056/056A. They will use the satellite networks as a wireless router for cooperative data exchange and form a wide area net.
They should have a backup OTH RF link, akin to Link 11?
 
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