Hong-Kong Protests

[Blitzo]

Certainly there was plenty of fear in the run up to 1997, but after that most HK people seemed pleasantly surprised by how things went. Bar the 2003 protests I think the first decade went reasonably well. Even 5-10 years ago I think people were mostly willing to stick it out and had hope things would get better.

Materially, things such as escalating housing prices are certainly enough to create legitimate concerns for socioeconomic wellbeing, but placing that at the feet of the Chinese government as if they had the power to solve that is dubious at best.

The other major change in that period of time is the stark rise in anti-mainlander and localist sentiment, which interacted with the fruits of the HK education system and the way in which the HK populace are in turn raised to believe in their role in the world and their role in the region and their role relative to China.
All of that coalesced into an ideological and emotional dislike of all things China.

There isn't to say that there are some legitimate economic or living standard issues in HK -- which frankly, if the Chinese government had more power in HK perhaps they would have been able to solve in past years via initiatives like central govt directed housing projects -- but I think we would really be kidding ourselves if one of the biggest push factors for people in HK that want to leave is the emotional fear and loathing of China, the Chinese government, and frankly the Chinese people as well.

None of us forget that before Chinese internet users started calling the blackshirts "cockroaches" -- the predecessors of the blackshirts around 2014 started it first when they happily called mainland Chinese "locusts".
In Hong Kong it is not uncommon to be met with genuine derision or hostility and in some few cases, violence if you speak mandarin, such is the level of hostility. Of course, speaking cantonese in the mainland might earn you some novel stares or at most some regional poking humour depending on where you are, but nothing on the scale of the reverse.

 

[Mr T]

Materially, things such as escalating housing prices are certainly enough to create legitimate concerns for socioeconomic wellbeing, but placing that at the feet of the Chinese government as if they had the power to solve that is dubious at best.

It's something I mentioned previously. The only way to change policy in Hong Kong is to change the government. Beijing blocked direct elections for the Chief Executive unless it could hand-pick the candidates via its proxies in the Functional Constituencies. That means there can't be change, because all Chief Executives would endlessly be pushing the status-quo because status-quo = stability = CCP happy. There's been over 20 years of pro-Beijing Chief Executives selected by Beijing loyalists, and there's still no credible plan for dealing with housing in the city.

Would direct elections make everything better? Maybe not. But if Beijing wants to retain final control over Hong Kong politics it can't complain when it gets blamed for what happens in the city.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think China managed things badly in the first couple of years. The CCP was content to wait on the national security legislation after the 2003 protests. It also moved quickly to get rid of Henry Tang when it turned out he was probably corrupt and deeply unpopular.

However, everything started going downhill afterwards, probably because Xi took over and introduced a national policy of "control, control, control". There was no chance he was going to allow real democracy in Hong Kong.

I think we would really be kidding ourselves if one of the biggest push factors for people in HK that want to leave is the emotional fear and loathing of China, the Chinese government, and frankly the Chinese people as well.

Up until 2010, most HK people I met (and these were people under 40) said they were Chinese and being a HKer was part of that. There was maybe suspicion over the repeated statements from the CCP that it was "too early" to talk about electoral reform. But there wasn't fear or loathing of China/Chinese people. They saw themselves as being Chinese.

None of us forget that before Chinese internet users started calling the blackshirts "cockroaches" -- the predecessors of the blackshirts around 2014 started happily calling mainland Chinese "locusts".

I'm not sure that playing the game of "who called who mean names first" really achieves much. Before 2014 I can recall plenty of Chinese people saying HKers were spoilt brats who complained too much. Also, the term "locusts" frequently referred to people who worked in the grey market reselling things like baby milk. Some of those were HKers as well, not just mainland Chinese. It's a term that's also used outside of HK to refer to the grey market reselling to China.

In Hong Kong it is not uncommon to be met with genuine derision or hostility and in some few cases, violence if you speak mandarin, such is the level of hostility. Of course, speaking cantonese in the mainland might earn you some novel stares or at most some regional poking humour depending on where you are, but nothing on the scale of the reverse.

It would be rather strange for someone to be attacked in mainland China for speaking Cantonese given that there are tens of millions of people in China that speak it, and most of them are in mainland China. On the other hand, if you started making your political views clear such as by publicly talking about autonomy for Hong Kong (or Taiwanese independence) there'd be a significant chance of being attacked.

As for Mandarin in HK, no one should be attacked for speaking their native language. But it's hardly surprising that some thugs would do that especially given the current tensions - they're a good excuse to commit violence. There's also been longer-term irritation about Mandarin in HK due to perceived attempts at forcing it on the city. Even a few years ago Lam had to publicly deny that there were plans to start teaching primarily in Mandarin in schools.

 

[ansy1968]

It's something I mentioned previously. The only way to change policy in Hong Kong is to change the government. Beijing blocked direct elections for the Chief Executive unless it could hand-pick the candidates via its proxies in the Functional Constituencies. That means there can't be change, because all Chief Executives would endlessly be pushing the status-quo because status-quo = stability = CCP happy. There's been over 20 years of pro-Beijing Chief Executives selected by Beijing loyalists, and there's still no credible plan for dealing with housing in the city.

Would direct elections make everything better? Maybe not. But if Beijing wants to retain final control over Hong Kong politics it can't complain when it gets blamed for what happens in the city.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think China managed things badly in the first couple of years. The CCP was content to wait on the national security legislation after the 2003 protests. It also moved quickly to get rid of Henry Tang when it turned out he was probably corrupt and deeply unpopular.

However, everything started going downhill afterwards, probably because Xi took over and introduced a national policy of "control, control, control". There was no chance he was going to allow real democracy in Hong Kong.



Up until 2010, most HK people I met (and these were people under 40) said they were Chinese and being a HKer was part of that. There was maybe suspicion over the repeated statements from the CCP that it was "too early" to talk about electoral reform. But there wasn't fear or loathing of China/Chinese people. They saw themselves as being Chinese.



I'm not sure that playing the game of "who called who mean names first" really achieves much. Before 2014 I can recall plenty of Chinese people saying HKers were spoilt brats who complained too much. Also, the term "locusts" frequently referred to people who worked in the grey market reselling things like baby milk. Some of those were HKers as well, not just mainland Chinese. It's a term that's also used outside of HK to refer to the grey market reselling to China.



It would be rather strange for someone to be attacked in mainland China for speaking Cantonese given that there are tens of millions of people in China that speak it, and most of them are in mainland China. On the other hand, if you started making your political views clear such as by publicly talking about autonomy for Hong Kong (or Taiwanese independence) there'd be a significant chance of being attacked.

As for Mandarin in HK, no one should be attacked for speaking their native language. But it's hardly surprising that some thugs would do that especially given the current tensions - they're a good excuse to commit violence. There's also been longer-term irritation about Mandarin in HK due to perceived attempts at forcing it on the city. Even a few years ago Lam had to publicly deny that there were plans to start teaching primarily in Mandarin in schools.

Hi Mr T

I respect your opinion very much and dont want to engage in a heated argument, from a personal experience, HK people really look down not only Chinese but all asian. In my field of business I had encounter some rudeness , there is an arrogant feeling of superiority that we needed them more than they need us. My other dealing with foreigners (Europeans, American ,Chinese and especially Japanese)are different , they had respect, they really treasure and relish our business relationship. just my two cents.

 

[supersnoop]

Hi Mr T

I respect your opinion very much and dont want to engage in a heated argument, from a personal experience, HK people really look down not only Chinese but all asian. In my field of business I had encounter some rudeness , there is an arrogant feeling of superiority that we needed them more than they need us. My other dealing with foreigners (Europeans, American ,Chinese and especially Japanese)are different , they had respect, they really treasure and relish our business relationship. just my two cents.

HKers have very strong sense of class/elitism. Not sure if they inherited this from Brits, or "old Chinese ways" that were abolished.
I always got this sense from them.
1. Japanese (Basically worship of Japan, only place I have ever seen people use Sony smartphones)
2. HK, S. Koreans, Taiwanese
3. North American born Cantonese, Singapore Chinese
4. Mainlanders
5. Other overseas Chinese (Malay, Indonesia, Philippines)
6. Viet-Chinese/Vietnamese
7. All other asians

 

[Dolcevita]

looks like the security law is being seriously enforce.

Words From grey boy 2 cross post from PAKISTAN DEFENSE FORUM

Guys, this "Punk" will surely be the first "CASE" of "terrorist act" offense under the new "National Security Law"
He's trying to flee to UK with a oneway ticket right after he committed this vicious terrorist attack on our brave Policeman however one of his relatives sold him out (rumors because of the half a million reward put up by our ex-Chief Excecutive Leung Chun-ying)
Hopefully no less than "10 yrs" if not life prison

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and the police officer stabber's accomplice as shown on the video footage is still at large.

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[ansy1968]

Hi supersnoop,

Correct , I dont blame them , I think they are a victim . My analysis is that they need to adapt to their new environment under British rule, they had to be converted and be "westernize", anything else is being scorn. The British has this strategy of divide and conquer, its Us against Them. They use the name HONGKONGERS instead of Chinese , see the malicious intent, Again just my two cents.

 

[ansy1968]

addendum,

My ideal solution, As China become more prominent and powerful, today generation and the next will usher in a great revival of Chinese culture and values. They will be living in a rejuvenated China , they will be proud , educated, cultured and nationalistic. Along the way we need to accommodate/convince our brothers and sister in HK to participate in pursuing the same Chinese dream.

 

[Hendrik_2000]

The HK independence movement has only ever had a small minority of support in HK. Even amongst the protest movement as a whole it didn't have majority support - none of the "five demands" included independence.

Also, the CCP already had that issue dealt with via disqualification for electoral positions and political parties if people were actively supporting independence. There was never any credible threat of independence, so it was no reason to just tear up the previous treaty about HK's status.

Yet millions of people fled from mainland China to Hong Kong for a better life over the years. In the 19th century HK island was home to a few fishing villages. Now look at it. Pretty much all of the ancestors of current HKers moved there voluntarily.

It is obvious that those Hanjian has their plan of course the majority does not support independence But that does not include those Hanjian and they has their plan knowing that they can never achieve their goal in one fell swoop. So the strategy is to call for one man and one vote and election of chief executive who is more sympathetic to their cause. Then they will enact legislation and law that will support their cause by controlling the judicial, media, education Then they will then promote the independence agenda thru those institution all along help and abide by the foreign power. Like they say wild fire in prairie start with single spark.
Barring those independence supporting legislator is not going to stop their goal it is but a roadblock on the way to independence. The new security law put a stop to that nonsense. It is like guided missile targeting those hanjian no wonder all those rats are leaving they know what is in store for them

I don't know why you mention Chinese immigration to Hongkong it has nothing to do Chinese nation or CCP Chinese has been immigrating out of China for centuries There are more than 30 to 40 million Chinese living outside China It is no difference than Italian, Mexican, Spaniard wo immigrate to North America seeking better. life. China in 19th 20 th centuries are govern by incompetent Qing government resulting in misery and poverty Then come the Japanese invasion and ensuing civil war, CR, GLF utter Chaos So it is no wonder people immigrate

 

[localizer]

and the police officer stabber's accomplice as shown on the video footage is still at large.

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The father of the alleged police stabber said he had warned his son to stay away from trouble as he had taken part in University of Hong Kong alumni activities.

 

[supersnoop]

However, not to fret my friend! Things are looking up now with the CPC sidelining the tycoons and asserting more direct political control with the new national security law!

The irony of the situation. Partially rooted in a need for greater socialism, but calling for opposition against a (more) socialist government.

Hi supersnoop,

Correct , I dont blame them , I think they are a victim . My analysis is that they need to adapt to their new environment under British rule, they had to be converted and be "westernize", anything else is being scorn. The British has this strategy of divide and conquer, its Us against Them. They use the name HONGKONGERS instead of Chinese , see the malicious intent, Again just my two cents.

I don't like to use victim mentality because it implies you don't have the power to help yourself.

However, troubles in HK (just like everything else) is not just one simple issue.

1. There is the obvious one of the corporate control of the city.
2. Also some legitimately desire to have more freedom in elections.
3. In the 80's to 90's, center of Chinese influence was HK. (For a brief period in the early 2000's, it was TW. Now, it is firmly PRC.), there are those that miss those days and misconstrue it with British Rule (really it is having more $$$ at that time) and/or inherent superiority over other Chinese.
4. Plus the people that are most adaptable to the change, are the most likely to have left (which is what some people were alluding to). It is not due to CCP mismanagement, but a natural order. Looking at it logically, as the fortunes of China increased, HK being the base of many companies' operations, HK staff end up posted elsewhere in China as needed. This means for the less ambitious, they are "left behind". Again, not because HK is bad, just it is a small city by Chinese standards.

Anyone who has a strong connection to HK knows all of these. They have been issues for a long time now. This is why the rioting is so upsetting. 1 & 2 you can change, 3 & 4, you can't. Will these rioters use 3 & 4 to always stir up trouble? This is why many support the NSL.

"Great revival of Chinese culture" will be interesting in the next 50 years. The effects of globalization are not fully vested yet. There are many overseas communities of Chinese now being reconnected to China. Long distanced communities like Jamaica, India, Peru. There are also many people of different nationalities moving to China as well. The impact of this remains to be seen.