Hong-Kong Protests

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I understand your point that winning to geopolitical competition should be the priority for Chinese citizens (and HKers, who are also ethnic Chinese and protected by Beijing). However, do most CCP officials REALLY care about winning for China, or do they see everything as a game to enhance their own family wealth? Think about Ling Jihua, who defected to the CIA for losing a political struggle in China. He now happily lives in the U.S. with his cronies. So many more CCP officials have their mansions overseas and married their sons and daughters to well-connected foreigners. They are doing so just in case if they lose their power and privileges as a result of power struggles, their children and wives could still hold onto their illicit wealth overseas (and most importantly, switch side to support anti-China forces for survival). In fact, ever since Zhou Yongkang was arrested, his daughter in law all of a sudden started talking about freedom and waving American flag (she became a naturalized U.S. citizen when Zhou was in power). In other words, while CCP officials prevent Chinese citizens (like you) from speaking their minds about various way to improve the country's governance and legal system, the same officials are taking advantage of the West's open economy and political system not to enhance China's power, but the material interests of their own family and clan members. They just happen to use the PRC Party-State system as a platform to cover up their dirty works and real intentions. I am NOT calling for overthrowing the CCP (because I am afraid of chaos, too), but at least citizens (like you) should have a voice in how your country is run and be able to hold corrupt cronies accountable without retributions. In other words, if your leaders don't really care about winning for you and could be a potential traitor (on part with HK pro-independence individuals, but a lot wealthier), why should you bother to obey them? As Trump accuses Washington of being dominated by a corrupt, unpatriotic internationalist elite, I think the same accusation should actually be applied to the CCP.
This is an analytical mistake on your part. You took the examples of the worst because they became famous for how terrible they are, and you tried to extrapolate about the population (being all Chinese officials) based on their actions. You literally picked fugitives, criminals, public enemies of the CCP to represent the CCP; that's foolish! That's like concluding that American tech agents are all traitors to the US because of Edward Snowden, who is a fugitive of the US! You will always fail when analyzing this way because it bypasses the silent majority in favor of the extreme. For example, how tall are Americans? Well, they have the best basketball teams in the world and players approaching 7 feet tall are everywhere so American people must be the tallest or at least among the tallest populations worldwide, right? No. American height is much more average than an analysis of its basketball team (the extreme) would lead you to believe. Actually, the tallest populations in the world are in the Dinaric Alps, and their height is in their silent majority.

Instead, look at big trends. China, under the CCP, rises faster than any other country in the world, including India, with a similar population but democratic government. This is big data evidence that the CCP serves China extremely well. Although it does not specify intent, the result is irrefutable, and the result to the development of the country is what matters. I'm not concerned at all about MY voice, MY interests, ME this or ME that; I'm not that selfish. I'm just fine and dandy; I'm a law abiding citizen with simple desires whose lifestyle would be unrestricted in virtually any government in the world. All I want is to see my country rise.

That said, what is your point? You keep using your mistaken analysis as evidence for how terrible the CCP is but then you say that you don't want them overthrown, and then you ask why should we obey them? What the hell does that mean? This is just nonsense complaining. What are you advocating should be done for a Chinese person to support his.her country?
 
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SpicySichuan

Senior Member
Registered Member
4. The only potentially effective harmful move the rioters can really come up with against China, is what I would call consistent "borderline terrorism". Like harassing and bashing passengers on metro system/public transport, occupying airport, severely vandalizing public/government property (especially important institutions like the legislature). This is potentially harmful, because this kind of distributed, decentralized sporadic attack will severely increase the cost of enforcing law and order in Hong Kong. This will put a huge strain in the Hong Kong Police forces and severely threaten the safety of the ruling elites in Hong Kong. If the rioter actually keep up that kind of attack for a long enough amount of time (2-3 years), it will turn Hong Kong into a very unsafe place and render the HK government an borderline "fail state". Under this kind of situation, the PAP will be forced to enter a much less orderly Hong Kong, in which they will effectively be fighting against guerilla "terrorists" in a prolonged conflict. This may become a bleeding wound that could significantly weaken China.
I'm, afraid this would exactly be the end. HK is no longer a protest. It is a full-fledge rebellion with no guns (at least not yet).
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
I'm, afraid this would exactly be the end. HK is no longer a protest. It is a full-fledge rebellion with no guns (at least not yet).
Generally, this fate is left to very poor regions with highly religious populations.

Being desolate means having no choice of a better life so being a freedom fighter or glorified terrorist doesn't seem so bad compared against being a starving hobo. But in a financial hub like Hong Kong where the other choice is living a prosperous life? The choice is much different.

Being religious means thinking that sacrificing your life fighting for your cause will come with afterlife rewards. Not only do the Chinese not believe that, the Chinese believe in the extreme opposite, of accumulating wealth and being successful for the honor and prosperity of one's parents/family. Chinese people don't want to die for afterlife glory; they want to live well and prosper.

These two points added together lead me to strongly believe that Hong Kong cannot become some war-torn terrorist guerrilla fighter crap hole but will get through this crisis to continue to be a successful and prosperous advanced economy along with all the safety that comes with such. It is the will of all Chinese people.
 

SpicySichuan

Senior Member
Registered Member
Generally, this fate is left to very poor regions with highly religious populations.

Being desolate means having no choice of a better life so being a freedom fighter or glorified terrorist doesn't seem so bad against being a starving hobo. But in a financial hub like Hong Kong where the other choice is living a prosperous life? The choice is much different.

Being religious means thinking that sacrificing your life fighting for your cause will come with afterlife rewards. Not only do the Chinese not believe that, the Chinese believe in the extreme opposite, of accumulating wealth and being successful for the honor and prosperity of one's parents/family. Chinese people don't want to die for afterlife glory; they want to live well and prosper.

These two points added together lead me to strongly believe that Hong Kong cannot become some war-torn terrorist guerrilla fighter crap hole but will get through this crisis to continue to be a successful and prosperous advanced economy along with all the safety that comes with such. It is the will of all Chinese people.

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With Hymns and Prayers, Christians Help Drive Hong Kong’s Protests
Christianity has had a striking influence in demonstrations against a proposed law that would allow extraditions to mainland China.

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By
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  • June 19, 2019
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HONG KONG — Armed with a Bible, a guitar and a drawing of Jesus walking on water, Andrea Wong sat outside the offices of Hong Kong’s central government and booed.

Ms. Wong, 18, usually stays out of politics. But in recent weeks, as Hong Kong was swept by mass protests against closer ties with mainland China, she asked herself what a good Christian would do.

“I am very certain that Jesus would not have stayed home enjoying the air-conditioning,” Ms. Wong said. “He would have been out here helping people and marching.”

Christians have been a visible part of the protests this month — among the largest in Hong Kong’s history — providing food and shelter at demonstrations and condemning
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. Many protesters, even those who are not religious, have embraced the teachings and messages of Christianity to denounce a proposed law to allow extraditions to mainland China.

Protesters have spoken of “loving thy neighbor” and winning a battle of “good versus evil.” Youth groups have held prayer circles to call for peace and redemption for the police. A hymn called “Sing Hallelujah to the Lord” has become an unofficial anthem of the demonstrations, echoing from bridges and makeshift shelters.

Hong Kong’s Christians have long played an important role in the politics of the semiautonomous Chinese territory, on issues like religious freedom, democracy and human rights. And though Catholics and Protestants make up only about one in nine people in this city of 7.5 million, the influence of Christianity in the protests has been striking, providing a source of inspiration and solace.

“We believe in upholding justice,” said David Cheung, a pastor who has taken part in the protests. “Our faith gives us our courage, confidence and hope against this evil government power.”

Christians’ influence is all the more noticeable as Chinese officials have
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in the mainland. Last year, Beijing
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recognizing the legitimacy of government-appointed bishops, a deal that was criticized by Catholic leaders in Hong Kong.

Many Christians said they saw the extradition measure as opening a door for China’s severe restrictions on religious freedom to make their way into Hong Kong.

“The law is unjust,” said Carita Ng, 52. “It is very dangerous to citizens like us because it deprives us of free speech. As Christians, we need it more than anyone.”

The extradition bill was indefinitely
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after large numbers of people had taken to the streets twice in four days. The measure would allow criminal suspects to be transferred for trial in jurisdictions including mainland China, where the courts are controlled by the ruling Communist Party.

On Sunday, a day after the bill was suspended, protesters turned out in even bigger numbers, with crowds that organizers estimated at close to two million people demanding that the measure be fully withdrawn.

The demonstrators have focused much of their ire on Hong Kong’s top leader, Carrie Lam, who is a devout Catholic. On Tuesday, Mrs. Lam
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and promised to better listen to the concerns of the public. Many protesters, who have called on her to resign, were unsatisfied with her apology.

For Christians, Mrs. Lam’s actions have a religious dimension. Many say they believe she has sinned and should step down. At the same time, they say they pray for her and hope she has a chance at redemption.

“She has gone astray,” said Ms. Wong, who has spent up to 10 hours a day singing, praying and marching during the protests. “I hope she will have the wisdom to do the right thing.”

On Monday, Mrs. Lam met with religious leaders and apologized. She told them she was lucky to be able to turn to her faith in a difficult time, according to the Rev. Canon Peter Douglas Koon, who attended the meeting. Mrs. Lam asked the leaders to pray for her and for Hong Kong, Father Koon said.

Among the first to speak out against the proposed extradition law was Cardinal Joseph Zen, the retired archbishop of Hong Kong.

Beyond worries that the law could be used by mainland officials to punish churches in Hong Kong, Cardinal Zen said Christians were united with other protesters by a fear that the law would leave Hong Kong residents vulnerable to the whims of mainland courts.

“Our clergy is rather conservative; not many usually come out,” he said. “But I think this is a moment when we should stand with the people. Otherwise, we are against the people, and there is no middle way.”

The prominence of Christianity in the protests has lent legitimacy and protection to the protesters, helping them go up against government officials like Mrs. Lam who initially dismissed their demands and compared them to spoiled children.

Some protesters who gathered outside the local legislature were advised to sing hymns because religious assemblies are more difficult for the police to break up.

On Wednesday, Cardinal John Tong of the Catholic Diocese of Hong Kong and the Rev. Eric So, chairman of the Hong Kong Christian Council, called on Mrs. Lam to withdraw the extradition bill and begin an independent inquiry into the police response to the protests.

A judicial challenge has also been
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alleging that an officer made a discriminatory remark when he told a group of clerics at a protest, “Ask your Jesus to come down and see us.”

Hong Kong, which was a hub for Christian missionaries under British rule, is now home to about 850,000 Christians and more than 1,500 churches. Many members of the middle and upper classes are Christians or studied at Catholic schools.

Chan Shun-hing, a professor of religion and philosophy at Hong Kong Baptist University, said the involvement of churches conferred on the protesters an image of nonviolence and morality.

“Christians still enjoy a very good reputation in society,” he said. “Whenever they talk, people will side with their positions.”

Alan Leong, the chairman of the pro-democracy Civic Party, said his religion had given him hope in taking on adversaries that seemed much bigger, like the Chinese Communist Party.

“On the face of it, it seems that you are no match for this ruthless power,” he said.

While pro-democracy protesters have in the past sometimes mocked Christian activists as zealots, many people of differing beliefs have rallied behind church leaders in the recent protests.

Alex Auyeung, a 27-year-old counselor, is not religious. But after participating in the
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, he visited a small church.

Mr. Auyeung arrived with difficult questions. Was it possible to overcome intense dislike for the police and to see them as human? Was a mob mentality among protesters prevailing online? What does forgiveness mean?

“We are at a very fragile moment,” he said. “We need to bring calmness and wisdom to people.”

He read from Corinthians, clasped his hands and bowed down to pray.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
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With Hymns and Prayers, Christians Help Drive Hong Kong’s Protests
Christianity has had a striking influence in demonstrations against a proposed law that would allow extraditions to mainland China.
This is just further evidence of Western meddling and stirring up riots. I have always hated religion, all of them, because they simply spread lies and are divorced from evidence. There is no good from any Christianity spreading to China.

But the good thing is, Christianity is very weak in China and the groups are very small. Among the small groups, the belief is not strong. From my interactions with Chinese Christians, they mostly like the atmosphere of brother-ship and being kind to each other with hardly anyone willing to make an actual sacrifice to prove their faith such as in tithing. The most they'll do is bring a dish to the church potluck. They treat Sunday Church like a big get-together to see their friends and they don't go if they're busy. The desire to live a prosperous and rewarding life and a successful career by far out-shines any Christianity not only in China but in overseas Chinese populations as well. When wealth and religion conflict, Chinese people always choose wealth. I so far do not see the Christianity movement in China being a significant threat to the stability of Hong Kong.
 
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solarz

Brigadier
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With Hymns and Prayers, Christians Help Drive Hong Kong’s Protests
Christianity has had a striking influence in demonstrations against a proposed law that would allow extraditions to mainland China.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

By
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


  • June 19, 2019
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

HONG KONG — Armed with a Bible, a guitar and a drawing of Jesus walking on water, Andrea Wong sat outside the offices of Hong Kong’s central government and booed.

Ms. Wong, 18, usually stays out of politics. But in recent weeks, as Hong Kong was swept by mass protests against closer ties with mainland China, she asked herself what a good Christian would do.

“I am very certain that Jesus would not have stayed home enjoying the air-conditioning,” Ms. Wong said. “He would have been out here helping people and marching.”

Christians have been a visible part of the protests this month — among the largest in Hong Kong’s history — providing food and shelter at demonstrations and condemning
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
. Many protesters, even those who are not religious, have embraced the teachings and messages of Christianity to denounce a proposed law to allow extraditions to mainland China.

Protesters have spoken of “loving thy neighbor” and winning a battle of “good versus evil.” Youth groups have held prayer circles to call for peace and redemption for the police. A hymn called “Sing Hallelujah to the Lord” has become an unofficial anthem of the demonstrations, echoing from bridges and makeshift shelters.

Hong Kong’s Christians have long played an important role in the politics of the semiautonomous Chinese territory, on issues like religious freedom, democracy and human rights. And though Catholics and Protestants make up only about one in nine people in this city of 7.5 million, the influence of Christianity in the protests has been striking, providing a source of inspiration and solace.

“We believe in upholding justice,” said David Cheung, a pastor who has taken part in the protests. “Our faith gives us our courage, confidence and hope against this evil government power.”

Christians’ influence is all the more noticeable as Chinese officials have
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
in the mainland. Last year, Beijing
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
recognizing the legitimacy of government-appointed bishops, a deal that was criticized by Catholic leaders in Hong Kong.

Many Christians said they saw the extradition measure as opening a door for China’s severe restrictions on religious freedom to make their way into Hong Kong.

“The law is unjust,” said Carita Ng, 52. “It is very dangerous to citizens like us because it deprives us of free speech. As Christians, we need it more than anyone.”

The extradition bill was indefinitely
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
after large numbers of people had taken to the streets twice in four days. The measure would allow criminal suspects to be transferred for trial in jurisdictions including mainland China, where the courts are controlled by the ruling Communist Party.

On Sunday, a day after the bill was suspended, protesters turned out in even bigger numbers, with crowds that organizers estimated at close to two million people demanding that the measure be fully withdrawn.

The demonstrators have focused much of their ire on Hong Kong’s top leader, Carrie Lam, who is a devout Catholic. On Tuesday, Mrs. Lam
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and promised to better listen to the concerns of the public. Many protesters, who have called on her to resign, were unsatisfied with her apology.

For Christians, Mrs. Lam’s actions have a religious dimension. Many say they believe she has sinned and should step down. At the same time, they say they pray for her and hope she has a chance at redemption.

“She has gone astray,” said Ms. Wong, who has spent up to 10 hours a day singing, praying and marching during the protests. “I hope she will have the wisdom to do the right thing.”

On Monday, Mrs. Lam met with religious leaders and apologized. She told them she was lucky to be able to turn to her faith in a difficult time, according to the Rev. Canon Peter Douglas Koon, who attended the meeting. Mrs. Lam asked the leaders to pray for her and for Hong Kong, Father Koon said.

Among the first to speak out against the proposed extradition law was Cardinal Joseph Zen, the retired archbishop of Hong Kong.

Beyond worries that the law could be used by mainland officials to punish churches in Hong Kong, Cardinal Zen said Christians were united with other protesters by a fear that the law would leave Hong Kong residents vulnerable to the whims of mainland courts.

“Our clergy is rather conservative; not many usually come out,” he said. “But I think this is a moment when we should stand with the people. Otherwise, we are against the people, and there is no middle way.”

The prominence of Christianity in the protests has lent legitimacy and protection to the protesters, helping them go up against government officials like Mrs. Lam who initially dismissed their demands and compared them to spoiled children.

Some protesters who gathered outside the local legislature were advised to sing hymns because religious assemblies are more difficult for the police to break up.

On Wednesday, Cardinal John Tong of the Catholic Diocese of Hong Kong and the Rev. Eric So, chairman of the Hong Kong Christian Council, called on Mrs. Lam to withdraw the extradition bill and begin an independent inquiry into the police response to the protests.

A judicial challenge has also been
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
alleging that an officer made a discriminatory remark when he told a group of clerics at a protest, “Ask your Jesus to come down and see us.”

Hong Kong, which was a hub for Christian missionaries under British rule, is now home to about 850,000 Christians and more than 1,500 churches. Many members of the middle and upper classes are Christians or studied at Catholic schools.

Chan Shun-hing, a professor of religion and philosophy at Hong Kong Baptist University, said the involvement of churches conferred on the protesters an image of nonviolence and morality.

“Christians still enjoy a very good reputation in society,” he said. “Whenever they talk, people will side with their positions.”

Alan Leong, the chairman of the pro-democracy Civic Party, said his religion had given him hope in taking on adversaries that seemed much bigger, like the Chinese Communist Party.

“On the face of it, it seems that you are no match for this ruthless power,” he said.

While pro-democracy protesters have in the past sometimes mocked Christian activists as zealots, many people of differing beliefs have rallied behind church leaders in the recent protests.

Alex Auyeung, a 27-year-old counselor, is not religious. But after participating in the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, he visited a small church.

Mr. Auyeung arrived with difficult questions. Was it possible to overcome intense dislike for the police and to see them as human? Was a mob mentality among protesters prevailing online? What does forgiveness mean?

“We are at a very fragile moment,” he said. “We need to bring calmness and wisdom to people.”

He read from Corinthians, clasped his hands and bowed down to pray.

I have to say I agree with @manqiangrexue, you take some marginal cases and blow it up into an imaginary mainstream. The fact is the vast majority of HK protesters are spoiled brats. They act bravely against a restrained HKPF, but will melt at the sight of an unleashed security force. There was a video of a HK police officer who pulled out his gun after rioters took his baton and started attacking him with it. The moment they saw the gun, the rioters ran like rabbits. There were dozens of them against a lone officer. If they really were hardcore insurgents, they would've grabbed that gun and started shooting the police.

On the same note, I would disagree with @jimmyjames30x30 assessment that HK can run a Taliban-style insurgency. Cities are actually the worst places to run an insurgency. That's why the Taliban holds the countryside while the US holds the cities. The PAP would have little trouble rooting these guys out if it ever came to it.
 

supercat

Major
This is true, and the Anglo-Saxon would indeed continue to squeeze their perceived opponents no matter what. However, the problem with the PRC is that it has an elites that is rotting the country from within, a threat that could hurt the ordinary Chinese people more than Anglo-Saxons. The Anglo-Saxon world order was merciless toward the Russian people, but so were President Yeltsin and his cronies, who stole Russian people's money and bought almost every property around Hyde Part in London.

As manqiangrexue suggests, the question is, how many PRC elites are behaving like the Russian elites? My hunch is not that many, maybe a small percentage. Otherwise China would be just like another Russia, instead of pulling hundreds of millions people out of poverty. On the other hand, the elites of Anglo-Saxon world is also rotting to the core, both in their moral and judicial systems, as the Epstein case demonstrates.
 
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jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
I'm, afraid this would exactly be the end. HK is no longer a protest. It is a full-fledge rebellion with no guns (at least not yet).

Ah, great, I knew it. This is one of those fools who listen to the likes of Guo Wengui........

Dude, if you really care even an ounce of what I wrote, please go back to my replies in this thread and read it carefully. Then, think independently with your own head.

OMFG, you are contradicting yourself! Go read the first article you quoted here! Then, carefully read my reply. Then, think independently with your own head!

I am really getting sick and tired of all the blockheads here in this forum, eventhough I do like most of you.
 

jimmyjames30x30

Junior Member
Registered Member
I have to say I agree with @manqiangrexue, you take some marginal cases and blow it up into an imaginary mainstream. The fact is the vast majority of HK protesters are spoiled brats. They act bravely against a restrained HKPF, but will melt at the sight of an unleashed security force. There was a video of a HK police officer who pulled out his gun after rioters took his baton and started attacking him with it. The moment they saw the gun, the rioters ran like rabbits. There were dozens of them against a lone officer. If they really were hardcore insurgents, they would've grabbed that gun and started shooting the police.

On the same note, I would disagree with @jimmyjames30x30 assessment that HK can run a Taliban-style insurgency. Cities are actually the worst places to run an insurgency. That's why the Taliban holds the countryside while the US holds the cities. The PAP would have little trouble rooting these guys out if it ever came to it.

I never said it would be a Taliban-style insurgency. I used my own terms: "consistent borderline terrorism". This is the kind that consistently put a significant strain on the law enforcement system of Hong Kong which slowly depletes the resources of the HK government, eventually turning it into a tired fail state. This is IN NO WAY comparable to the Taliban. This is the real danger. This is done via hundreds and hundreds of sporadic violent attacks, and under the strain of economic/financial sanction from an outside force. This will happen over a long period of time.

However, what we are seeing so far, is that these "anti-China" foreign media was more interested to uphold their political-correct rhetoric. Their articles usher back in the kind of "peaceful demonstration" in which "not even a tear gas needed to be fired", as this seems to give them a moral high ground. They gave these kind of peaceful demonstration countless praises, and useless made-up theories that suggests that this is much more effective than desecrating the legislature hall, occupy the airport, beating up travelers, etc.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Hong Kong is a stronghold of ethnic Chinese (and SE Asians) who are fiercely anti-CCP (but not China as a whole). However, if CCP sends in tanks to wipe them off the map, CCP's SOES and well-connected private firms would also lose billions of investment (not to mention additional costs inflicted by sanctions). Therefore, I think military option should be off the table, unless Xi is willing to sacrifice tons of material interests belonging to the CCP, its well-connected businesses (including those owned by Xi's family members), and SOEs.

Explain it to me why SOE would lost million I don't think they have plant or facility in Hongkong Most of them only use Hongkong for head office
No military option should be on the table and about time those rubble rouser get spanking.
Too much emphasize was given of Hongkong as safe haven for money laundering. Well money does not have loyalty if it too hot they can go elsewhere Panama. Lichtenstein or any other safe heaven
So it is ridiculous to say that China will not act because of the Hongkong status as safe heaven
 
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