Is the US shooting itself in the foot by banning Huawei?

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weig2000

Captain
A fascinating read. The author is writing this one almost like he is writing an important episode of history, telecom industry history in any case.

The western media invariably like to insinuate that Mr. Ren has some deep and secrete connection with PLA because he used to be an army engineer in the '70s and '80s and Huawei's success is due in large part to government subsidies and support. It was almost like Mr. Ren had worked for Nazi - WTF. I'm pretty sure Mr. Ren and vast majority of the Chinese citizens are very proud if they have served in the military for their country, just like "the men and women serving our military to defend freedom around the world," whatever that means. Although in reality, Ren Zhengfei was just a mid-level engineer among the bloated and backward Chinese military of six million people strong back then. That Huawei's success is because government subsidies and support is even more laughable. If that were the case, China would have dominated any industry it wanted to. For a company and client like Huawei, Chinese banks and financial institutions would beat a trail to Huawei's door to offer loans at the most favorable terms. Simply put, a very successful company like Huawei doesn't need worry about financing, but then so are most successful companies in the world. Anyone with some knowledge of the short history of China's telecom industry knows its brutal competitive landscape and the numerous failed companies on the wayside. Huawei has been very few of the surviving companies. If anything, Huawei's success is a testimony to the large, dynamic and open domestic telecom market, Huawei's culture and work ethics, and Mr. Ren's vision and leadership.

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2003 deal between Chinese group and US partner would have changed course of telecoms history

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Ren Zhengfei of Huawei and Mike Zafirovski and Larry Cheng of Motorola walking on a beach with a female translator on Hainan island in 2003 as the two sides moved closer to signing a letter of intent on the sale of Huawei to Motorola

Henny Sender in Hong Kong 2 HOURS AGO

On a December morning in 2003, two Chinese men in bright tropical shirts and trunks, a westerner in sportswear and a female translator looked deep in conversation as they strolled on a beach in the Chinese resort of Hainan island.

Two of the men were from the US telecoms company Motorola: Mike Zafirovski, chief operating officer, and Larry Cheng, head of the Chinese business. The third, dressed in blue, was Ren Zhengfei, the founder of Huawei and a former People’s Liberation Army (PLA) member, then just 49 years old.

A few weeks later, a deal had been agreed. A letter of intent was signed for Motorola to buy Huawei, even then China’s leading telecoms equipment supplier, for $7.5bn.

Today, Huawei has become the most important, and most controversial, telecoms supplier in the world, with global revenues of more than $100bn last year. Its rise has triggered fears in the west over China’s control and alleged manipulation of national communications networks.

Had the deal with Motorola, which is being revealed for the first time, succeeded it would have changed the course of telecoms history. Although as one senior Chinese executive in Hong Kong noted: “It isn’t clear whether Huawei could have saved Motorola or Motorola would ultimately have destroyed Huawei.”

At the time of the deal, Motorola and Huawei were both on their way to becoming national champions.

Both companies were leaders in wireless network equipment and both companies made mobile phones, although at that point it was Motorola rather than Huawei which had a glittering global brand. The two companies had also worked together, from 2000, to develop and design technology that was resold under Motorola’s logo.

But after the proposed acquisition fell through, Motorola’s star faded and it racked up billions of dollars of losses as it was eclipsed by other companies, including its former Chinese partner, turned rival. In 2010, Motorola sued Huawei for stealing its commercial secrets, a suit that was later settled out of court, but it was too late.

The revelation that Huawei was nearly sold to a US company also illustrates how it only became one of China’s most favoured companies after it succeeded in growing its international business, starting with a pivotal deal to build the UK’s telecoms network in 2005.

“Huawei wasn’t originally handpicked for subsidies and support. Now the government supports Huawei because it succeeded and has become so important to national competitiveness,” said Yang Zhizhong, the banker at Morgan Stanley who represented Huawei in the negotiations with Motorola, and who also handled the sale of its power systems division to Emerson Electric two years earlier.

Back then, “Mr Ren wanted to be independent of the government, he didn’t want any interference from them,” he added. “He never wanted money from them.”

When the letter of intent was signed between the two companies, there were no government officials or representatives from the military present. Both Morgan Stanley and JPMorgan, representing Motorola, were content they would not suffer any reputational damage from advising on the deal.

While in the early days, Huawei sold equipment both to the government and the PLA, this business had become “modest” by 2005, according to Mr Zafirovski. “China Mobile was their biggest customer,” he said.

But Huawei was thought to be close to the government and the PLA and Mr Zafirovski said Motorola, whose biggest customers were the US networks AT&T and Verizon, spent months ensuring there were safeguards. He said he spoke with executives at Emerson Electric who assured him of the quality of Huawei’s people, products and controls. Though he noted that final due diligence would have followed the agreement on a price.

Huawei’s ownership was not a hurdle, said Mr Yang. While many influential Communist party families and private equity firms had offered Huawei investment, Mr Ren had declined them in favour of bank loans, he said.

“Huawei refused the temptation of receiving money from financial partners no matter how influential they were. He (Ren) did not want to get into bed with any family,” Mr Yang recalled. “He always resisted such requests. He believed if he let one family or princeling in, he would alienate all the others.”

Bankers who worked on the transaction say that Mr Zafirovski seemed to establish a rapport with the Huawei side. This was in part because Mr Zafirovski had immigrated from what is now Macedonia but was then part of Yugoslavia, “I would joke with Mr Ren that I am also a communist,” he said, referring to his childhood under Tito’s government. He added that he was careful to lose to Mr Ren at ping-pong when they played in Hainan.

The deal was carefully structured to make sure it would not fall foul of regulators on either side, with six business units split equally between the US and China.

The combination would have created huge value, said Mr Zafirovski. “We thought in this case one and one would equal five,” he said.

Huawei, meanwhile, had been “going through a cold winter”, said Leon Meng, the JPMorgan banker who advised Motorola. Huawei had settled a case with Cisco over technology theft, but there was no sign it would succeed in developing its own leading technology.

He said he had been surprised Mr Ren had wanted to sell, and then dismayed when the deal fell through. “I was surprised by the openness of the Huawei team and deeply impressed by their work ethics in the long and extensive due diligence process,” he said.

But even as the letter of intent was being finalised, Mr Zafirovski was being passed over and Ed Zander, from Sun Microsystems, was brought in to be Motorola’s chief executive. Mr Zander consented to further talks but ultimately balked at signing off on the deal, as the board fretted over what it saw as a high price for an unknown foreign quantity, with the bulk payable upfront in cash.

“I was shocked by the Motorola board decision to turn down this deal as the due diligence results were overwhelmingly positive and both sides’ operating teams had already formed strong rapport among themselves,” Mr Meng said.

Mr Zafirovski left Motorola and joined Nortel Networks. Today, he runs his own family office in Chicago and serves as a senior adviser to Blackstone.

Motorola went on to sell its phone handset business to Google, which in turn sold it to the Chinese company Lenovo, while Motorola Solutions now focuses on communications systems for the public sector, particularly the emergency services.

Huawei, meanwhile, became the biggest telecoms equipment company in the world, and the second largest smartphone maker by sales.
 

Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
A fascinating read. The author is writing this one almost like he is writing an important episode of history, telecom industry history in any case.

I was just about the post the same article. The FT does a good job presenting both sides of the picture when it comes to Huawei and leaves it to the reader to make up their mind.

That Huawei's success is because government subsidies and support is even more laughable. If that were the case, China would have dominated any industry it wanted to.

Government subsidies and support are hardly a guarantee of success. If that were true, China would now be a major aerospace and semiconductor player, given how much money it invested into those sectors. For this to work, you need a large base of well educated engineers and scientists, coupled with experienced and capable management. 25 years ago China had neither, but today things are different.
 

vesicles

Colonel
I don't know the history on this. I have no intention on dwelling into a case where I don't know the history and the facts. In particular I don't know what international and intellectual property laws were prevailing during that period. It is either legal or illegal. Since you brought it up, tell me what laws were broken then.

The western terminology of the event is "the great British tea heist". The dictionary definition of a "heist" is "a robbery" or "a steal". Using common logic, I would assume a robbery would be considered as illegal in any culture and in any country...

In the case of tea, China had considered its tea industry a primary trade secret that was pivotal to its national interests. It was a trade secret that China had successfully protected for centuries and China had profited from its tea industry immensely. That's why Mr. Fortune had to pretend to be a Chinese and had to resort to stealing to get the secrets of the Chinese tea industry. I don't know how you can justify that, except maybe using technicality and argue that there was no WTO back in the 19th century. Since there was no international law for intellectual properties back then, any people from any country would be free to do whatever they wanted, I guess? I would have no response to that. However, I would like to reiterate that even the West considers the act as a heist, which is a negative term used to describe an illegal crime.

I thought the discussion was about Huawei. I presented the reasoning on why Australia considers it a security risk and that a decision was based on risk management. How or earth did it degenerate into some kind of postulation about slavery and colonization? I am happy to have a conversation about moral equivalence and the pontification of moral duties and obligations but this will be seriously off thread.

I am perfectly fine with your argument about how Huawei would potentially pose a security risk to Australia. Absolutely fine. No disagreement there. I am equally fine with Australia's decision to keeping Huawei out. It is a totally legit decision to do whatever you can to protect your own national interests.

However, you did mention in your post about the unethical history of Huawei by Western standards, as shown and highlighted below. That's what motivated me to compose the post that I did. Since you brought up "history", I wanted to emphasize that the West has had a similar history of unethical behaviors. That's why I said that there was no need to use the moral high ground as an argument since everyone has been guilty of the same crimes. As such, using the moral high ground would actually weaken your argument. Simply arguing that rejecting Huawei is in accordance with the national interests of Australia would be the most powerful and the most legit reason.

Huawei do not have a history of ethical behaviour by western standards especially with its theft and violation of proprietary data. For example, there are documented history of Huawei’s disregard for the intellectual property rights of other companies in the United States. This include the 2010 Motorola case over the misappropriation of proprietary wireless switching technology and in the 2003 Cisco case of stealing proprietary network router technology. This eventuated the US House Intelligence Committee in 2012 to issue a public report that Huawei posed a potential threat to national security. The most recent indictment regarding T-Mobile filed on 16th January 2019 in the US District court of Seattle Washington outlined in detail not only Huawei’s attempt at stealing proprietary information but in its subsequent cover up. Details revealed including Huawei’s official policy of not only actively encouraging its employees to steal confidential information from competitor but reward them for their effort. It is therefore not surprising that an executive of Huawei was caught for spying in Poland. The second indictment against Huawei issued on 24th January 2019 in the US District court of New York further outlines how it structures entity and operate it to bypass US regulations.
 

AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
The notorious suspects are running on fumes in here. They don't know why the West's history is being used in this discussion? Maybe because when one can no longer make arguments in said discussion, they've resorted to hiding behind the flag, democracy and freedom, and/or God to make arguments. Since Edward Snowden revealed long ago the US was and is doing everything the US accuses, what do they have to with this discussion? Because they're being used as shields because no one is suppose argue against those things despite being primary violators of them. It's their side that wants to destroy the other side yet they don't understand why there's resistance. You're suppose to die when they command it.

These countries are afraid of human rights violating China yet they don't end relations. They hide behind the rule of law yet don't understand why China is retaliating with economics. Yeah be completely in denial that you're all doing hypocritically the same thing. Trudeau is in a scandal right now that's an absolute contradiction to the rule of law he hides behind when arguing against China over the Meng case. End relations right now under your fake moral authority. You don't because you're the biggest greedy hypocrite of them all. The higher priority ain't the flag, democracy and freedom, or God because making money always rules over them all. Deny those processors to China and China will fall yet making money off those processors is more important. They think they hold all the power yet they don't pull the trigger. Do it!

No one on the China side proclaims China doesn't need the world yet the world needs China unlike the other way around. They accuse members in here of being arrogant? Why do you care? It just shows how they want to control people's thoughts where they want to regulate what one person not in a position of authority out of billions around the world thinks. Don't like Chinese over-confidence? Yeah that's because it was born from decades of arrogance on your part. Don't blame anyone because there's joy when you're wrong. If the Chinese were wrong, why not enjoy it more when they find out they weren't right? But they even see chances are the Chinese are not going to be wrong hence why we see so much whining over China's future as a threat to their monopoly of power over the world. They think China's rise is bad for the world. The world like where only American and Canadian baseball teams can play in the World Series? And they think the Chinese are arrogant...
 
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vesicles

Colonel
yeah noticed some pro-China team members using their version of
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here LOL

Well, I have to apologize for not being able to forget how China had been victimized by the West... Similarly, the African Americans can't seem to forget how they had been victimized by slavery not too long ago. Here in the US, many Caucasians also seem to be frustrated that the African Americans always bring up how they had been victimized in the past... If you ask an Irish about their history with the English, you might get a similar response... The movie "Brave Heart" stirred up emotions about something that happened almost 1000 years ago... It's a pity that victims can't seem to easily forget how they have been hurt... It's a form of PTSD, I guess? We need some serious therapy time...

I admit that this ancestral sin thing is a serious psychological issue for many cultures and nations victimized by others in the past. It is not healthy, I agree. Unfortunately this mental issue has not been resolved by even medical professionals. If you have any suggestions, by all means share with us. Simply telling us to "forget about it" does not work, unfortunately...
 
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Max Demian

Junior Member
Registered Member
...
I admit that this ancestral sin thing is a serious psychological issue for many cultures and nations victimized by others in the past. It is not healthy, I agree. Unfortunately this mental issue has not been resolved by even medical professionals. If you have any suggestions, by all means share with us. Simply telling us to "forget about it" does not work, unfortunately...

It's called victim mentality or in this particular case collective victimhood. There are people in Europe who still blame Germany for the fact that their countries are an economic mess today.

The same attitude often arises in discussions about gender equality between men and women. And so on and so forth.
 

vesicles

Colonel
It's called victim mentality or in this particular case collective victimhood. There are people in Europe who still blame Germany for the fact that their countries are an economic mess today.

The same attitude often arises in discussions about gender equality between men and women. And so on and so forth.

It is, I agree. Unfortunately it is a part of usual human psyche. It would be great if we can get over it...
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
It is, I agree. Unfortunately it is a part of usual human psyche. It would be great if we can get over it...

Thing is. everytime things like this happens. The west then spin it and try to make us "the victims" look bad to defend their own current actions by saying we hold grudges!
It is funny that it is sways the aggressors that always say we should forgive and forget. And believe me, the aggressors easily forget as it had never happened!
Indeed, not only they forget, they then even went further by whitewashing and distorting history to suit their narratives.
In the UK where I grew up. We were NEVER taught about the "opium war" in school for example. In fact what was taught was that the reasons why Hong Kong became British was because China refused to open up to "trade" and the British had to forced trade on China. (Ok opium war materials is available for serious researchers at university level, but majority of the Britis with school and college level education would never know the truth or even bother to find the truth)!
For years, I've had to argued with the average Brits, not because they are unreasonable, but simply because they are ignorant due to their own government deliberately misleading them with the truth.
This remind me of the encounter between Mrs Thatcher and Deng. When she accused the chinese not up holding their part of the "contract" on Hong Kong. (Because Hong Kong was ceded to the UK in perpetual.) One of official had to explain to her how Britain obtain the treaty the first place!
I am the decendent of the victim of the past. But I am not bound or held back by the past. I forgive and forget. I forgive so much I even married and have children with my English wife. My best man and most of my friends are white English people.
But what I'll challenge is people trying on the moral high ground by saying they (the west) always play fair and law abiding, and the Chinese are the yellow peril that always break the law and steal and cheat their way around the world!
And when challenged their law abiding ways by pointing out their past behaviours, we are then accused of not being able to let go of the past and somehow developed a mental problem of victim hood! Gee really!
 

localizer

Colonel
Registered Member
Thing is. everytime things like this happens. The west then spin it and try to make us "the victims" look bad to defend their own current actions by saying we hold grudges!
It is funny that it is sways the aggressors that always say we should forgive and forget. And believe me, the aggressors easily forget as it had never happened!
Indeed, not only they forget, they then even went further by whitewashing and distorting history to suit their narratives.
In the UK where I grew up. We were NEVER taught about the "opium war" in school for example. In fact what was taught was that the reasons why Hong Kong became British was because China refused to open up to "trade" and the British had to forced trade on China. (Ok opium war materials is available for serious researchers at university level, but majority of the Britis with school and college level education would never know the truth or even bother to find the truth)!
For years, I've had to argued with the average Brits, not because they are unreasonable, but simply because they are ignorant due to their own government deliberately misleading them with the truth.
This remind me of the encounter between Mrs Thatcher and Deng. When she accused the chinese not up holding their part of the "contract" on Hong Kong. (Because Hong Kong was ceded to the UK in perpetual.) One of official had to explain to her how Britain obtain the treaty the first place!
I am the decendent of the victim of the past. But I am not bound or held back by the past. I forgive and forget. I forgive so much I even married and have children with my English wife. My best man and most of my friends are white English people.
But what I'll challenge is people trying on the moral high ground by saying they (the west) always play fair and law abiding, and the Chinese are the yellow peril that always break the law and steal and cheat their way around the world!
And when challenged their law abiding ways by pointing out their past behaviours, we are then accused of not being able to let go of the past and somehow developed a mental problem of victim hood! Gee really!

Apparently, Western powers think they get to decide when some piece of history is "too old" or "irrelevant" or "whataboutism."

If that's the case, rest of the world should be able to do the same.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
I cannot speak for other countries and in their decision making process but here in Australia I am somewhat familiar with the debate and arguments for banning Huawei in the 5G implementation. Huawei is considered a high security risk vendor for reasons I will outline below. As a preamble it is important to appreciate that 5G due to its complexity brings a new level of overall security risk not present in 4G. This is the technical advice provided by the chief of Australia’s Signals Directorate (ASD) and became a significant consideration in Australia’s decision to ban Huawei. Essentially with 5G, a firewall between the core technology and its edge cannot be reasonably assured unlike in 4G. As such, the choice of vendor to the technology implementation is critical in ensuring security integrity in the 5G technology chain. A 5G infrastructure under gird Australia’s economic and security future. The risk of a ‘trojan horse” that can potentially undermine privacy, liberty and security is an unacceptable risk for Australia.

Huawei do not have a history of ethical behaviour by western standards especially with its theft and violation of proprietary data. For example, there are documented history of Huawei’s disregard for the intellectual property rights of other companies in the United States. This include the 2010 Motorola case over the misappropriation of proprietary wireless switching technology and in the 2003 Cisco case of stealing proprietary network router technology. This eventuated the US House Intelligence Committee in 2012 to issue a public report that Huawei posed a potential threat to national security. The most recent indictment regarding T-Mobile filed on 16th January 2019 in the US District court of Seattle Washington outlined in detail not only Huawei’s attempt at stealing proprietary information but in its subsequent cover up. Details revealed including Huawei’s official policy of not only actively encouraging its employees to steal confidential information from competitor but reward them for their effort. It is therefore not surprising that an executive of Huawei was caught for spying in Poland. The second indictment against Huawei issued on 24th January 2019 in the US District court of New York further outlines how it structures entity and operate it to bypass US regulations.

More importantly, the opaque relationship between Huawei and Beijing and its willingness or lack of freedom to do anything other than Beijing’s bidding is a serious consideration. This is amplified by China’s National Intelligence Law, passed in 2017 that compels “all organisations and citizens” to help the country’s intelligence work. Article 38 of China’s cyber security law compels a telecommunications firm such as Huawei to do its bidding. Anxiety about Huawei equipment is not theoretical. Beijing for five years, from 2012 to 2017,
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using “backdoors” in Huawei equipment installed in the new African Union headquarters, which China donated to the organization. In 2018, the USTR issued a 215 page report which contained about a thousand cases outlining China’s attempt at “forced” technology transfers through various means and China’s official response was simply to brush it off.

Australia as a sovereign nation takes its security concerns seriously and China’s past behavior and recent posture does not suggest it will modify its future behavior. Australia will need to do what it considers necessary to protect itself and its own interest. Just last week, a “state actor’ conducted cyber hacks on both of Australia’s political parties and it is obvious who was the “state actor”.

Yes, so you and your government thinks huawai is bad and should be banned on security ground because they can use their equipment to spy on your citizens.
Ok I get that.
But, my question was that all nations conduct spying activities, and the west is more adept at it than China.
In fact, China, US or even OZ can and does spy on other nations using equipments made by others. Yet you don't see this as a security issues.
All you can say is that huawai has to do what their government ask because it's written in their law and this is a bad thing and somehow unique to China. But quite conveniently forget to mention that almost every nations in the world have the same security requirment written on their laws to request their own providers to give up information to their security agencies. A bit selective, don't you think?
This security issue is a red herring. It's used to justify the banning of huawai to stop China stealing a March on the west. Period!
If it wasn't for the US, the rest of the western world would be on board with huawai, indeed some are more deepper in it than others.
And judging by the noises coming from some countries (NZ, UK). It seems they no longer think security is an issue. Funny that? (I wonder if it's anything to do with the immenant trade deal that Trump is desperate to sign)!
I'm willing to bet that huawai would no longer be a security issue once the trade deal is done!
Don't get me wrong it'll still be an issue, just not a security one!
 
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